Pope Benedict calls Non-Catholic Christians defective!
I read a pretty disturbing article this morning.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_eu/pope_other_christians;_ylt=AgUsFJPc2XmF6k0qNsDzroIDW7oF
I don't know why any of this comes as a shock to me! I'm pretty familiar with the history and reputation of the Catholic Church and how they hold steadfast to the belief that they are THE CHURCH, but I guess I wanted to believe that the days of religious self righteousness were in the past. I guess not!
I can't believe that as the religious figurehead of the Catholic Church this Pope would come out and say such things! It's just another discredit to the Catholic Church's reputation if you ask me!
-"non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation"
I was under the impression that any place where "havadatsyals" gathered and prayed God was present. I guess this Pope feels God is only present if Catholics get together and pray!
-"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," " other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession -- the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles -- and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid"
Is he trying to insinuate that the "one church" Christ established is the Catholic church? I'm not a theology major or expert but I was a History major and I did study the Ancients (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) but I was under the impression that Thaddeus & Bartholemew introduced Christianity to Armenia in 301 AD while Christianity wasn't fully accepted in the Roman Empire until Constantine legalized it around 312-313 AD!
Maybe Pope Benedict feels that only the efforts of St. Peter were valid and the fact that other apostles were in Asia spreading the seed of Christ's church isn't noteworthy!
I can not believe he would say "Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation" WOW! That's a bold statement if I've ever heard one! Who died and made this Pope God anyway? I would expect a bit more tolerance and respect for people of other faiths (and in this case Christian faiths for St. Peter's sake) and from A POPE at that!
As Apostolic Christians, we may not have "direct apostolic succession in our priestly ordinations" but to call us "invalid"? This is a DIRECT CONTRADICITION against the Nicaean creed "Havadamk" which is recited by Catholics and Apostolics alike! We clearly state "We believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" but apparently once again this Pope places himself above the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea that took place in 325 AD!
Personally, I think Churches with a history of persecution and sexual abuse of children are pretty "invalid" and "defective", but hey... I don't judge! I'll leave that up to my God!
Am I alone here? Is anyone else outraged at this Pope's audacity?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_eu/pope_other_christians;_ylt=AgUsFJPc2XmF6k0qNsDzroIDW7oF
I don't know why any of this comes as a shock to me! I'm pretty familiar with the history and reputation of the Catholic Church and how they hold steadfast to the belief that they are THE CHURCH, but I guess I wanted to believe that the days of religious self righteousness were in the past. I guess not!
I can't believe that as the religious figurehead of the Catholic Church this Pope would come out and say such things! It's just another discredit to the Catholic Church's reputation if you ask me!
-"non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation"
I was under the impression that any place where "havadatsyals" gathered and prayed God was present. I guess this Pope feels God is only present if Catholics get together and pray!
-"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," " other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession -- the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles -- and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid"
Is he trying to insinuate that the "one church" Christ established is the Catholic church? I'm not a theology major or expert but I was a History major and I did study the Ancients (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) but I was under the impression that Thaddeus & Bartholemew introduced Christianity to Armenia in 301 AD while Christianity wasn't fully accepted in the Roman Empire until Constantine legalized it around 312-313 AD!
Maybe Pope Benedict feels that only the efforts of St. Peter were valid and the fact that other apostles were in Asia spreading the seed of Christ's church isn't noteworthy!
I can not believe he would say "Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation" WOW! That's a bold statement if I've ever heard one! Who died and made this Pope God anyway? I would expect a bit more tolerance and respect for people of other faiths (and in this case Christian faiths for St. Peter's sake) and from A POPE at that!
As Apostolic Christians, we may not have "direct apostolic succession in our priestly ordinations" but to call us "invalid"? This is a DIRECT CONTRADICITION against the Nicaean creed "Havadamk" which is recited by Catholics and Apostolics alike! We clearly state "We believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" but apparently once again this Pope places himself above the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea that took place in 325 AD!
Personally, I think Churches with a history of persecution and sexual abuse of children are pretty "invalid" and "defective", but hey... I don't judge! I'll leave that up to my God!
Am I alone here? Is anyone else outraged at this Pope's audacity?
posted by LORI at 8:22 PM
6 Comments:
You have misstated or misunderstood the Pope's document. It is not as outragous as you think. It states nothing new of the Church's teachings from the time of the apostles. Particularly when it comes to Apostolic Churches of the Eastern Rites.
One of the important area's where I believe your information is lacking is how the Latin rite church (Rome) and all the Eastern rite churches view each other. The document does not place the Eastern rites in the same category as the Protestants. Some of the Eastern rites are in Union with Rome and, as such, posses (in the eye's of Rome) all the marks of the true church. For the Eastern churches not in communion with Rome the document reiterates that the separation between the East and West is a cloud on the fullness of the ministry of Jesus Christ.
Regarding Church history you are way off the mark. It seems you either do not fully understood or are overlooking the historical relationships between all the early apostolic churches from 33 AD to the Council of Nicaea. Unity of the Church, faith, and understanding was very important to the early church fathers.
This new Vatican document only reiterates one of the issues that separates the Orthodox Churches from the Catholic Churches (both East and West). Both East and West agree that the Schism between the two is damaging but neither side denies the apostolic place of the other. From the Eastern Orthodox Point of view the Pope's document goes easy on the Protestants. As I understand the Eastern Orthodox view the Protestant Reformation teaches one of history’s greatest heresies. I think one of the stumbling blocks for full communion between East and West is that the Eastern Churches think the Latin Church’s ecumenism with the Protestants is wrong.
Religion has always been about politics. Always. Bearing that in mind, there's no need to get all worked up about it.
Besides, the article includes -
"
The document said that Orthodox churches were indeed "churches" because they have apostolic succession and enjoyed "many elements of sanctification and of truth."
"
We aren't Orthodox, but we are Apostolic, as, like you mentioned, the Sts. Bartholomew and Thaddeus preached Christianity in Armenia back in the first century, with St. Gregory taking the mantle in 301.
However, the article continues -
"
But it said they [Orthodox Churches] do not recognize the primacy of the pope — a defect, or a "wound" that harmed them, it said.
"
Well, I guess that should make Armenian Catholics happy, as they get the best of both worlds. :-)
Forget it about it, Lori, it's all just political talk.
I know I'm not an expert on this topic and I didn't claim to be and I did invite people to correct me if I'm wrong, but I do know that the Catholic Church recognizes Apostolics and Orthodox but my point is... WHO ASKED THEM? We aren't seeking their acceptance or approval! That's what disgusts me! If anything they should feel lucky Apostolics and Orthodox still recognize them as a "valid" church what with all their sex scandals and tainted history and reputation!
Plus no self respecting CHRISTIAN leader should give themselves the right to call any church "invalid" be it Protestant, Pentacoastal, Baptis, Mormon, Lutheran etc etc! (I know they do and always will, but it's just my opinion that they shouldn't. I think it's ugly and wrong! That kind of judgement has no place on this earth and should be left to God)
Anyone who knows me has probably heard me express my thoughts about how I don't understand how Armenians can be Catholic, Protestant or Mormon since as a nation we are Apostolic BUT that's my opinion as an ARMENIAN. As a CHRISTIAN I don't judge. I accept and respect that people have the right to choose whatever religion and faith they want.
For the first 1,000 years after the death of our Lord all the Christian rites considered themselves one church. The great schism between East and West of 1054 A.D. brought about the distinctive use of Catholic vs. Orthodox in the whole of Christendom. Most Eastern rites that I know of that call themselves Catholic are in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church and therefore the document, you object to, has zero effect on those churches.
All of the early Bishops, who were sitting on one of the original apostolic sees, got together to formulate dogmas and such and to excommunicate those bishops and churches who taught heretical teachings. As I recall, (I may be wrong about this) the Coptic Church was excommunicated by both East and West about 500-600 A.D. Possess
What the Pope's letter does is attempts to return to classical Socratic dialogue about restoring unity. His hope is to have theologians and academics engage in an old fashioned debate over what separates Christians. His goal is to attempt to make Christ’s Church One Holy Catholic and Apostolic again. Just like it was for the first 5-6-7 centuries after Christ’s resurrection.
You may ask 'who gives a cr#p?' and that is a valid question. And the answer is Jesus. St. Paul wrote in a number of place in the Bible that Unity of Faith is essential to the Christian communities for all time. Also the concept of unity of faith was extensively written about by the early church fathers in the first three centuries after Christ’s death.
It was very common in the first few hundred years for the Bishops to send a corrective letter to another Bishop of another church correcting an errant teaching. I believe most if not all Eastern rites agree that the Bishop of Rome has always enjoyed a position of primacy among the other Bishops from the beginning of the Church. The Orthodox say that the primacy is only ceremonial and not the primacy of teaching Faith and morals that the Roman Church claims to possess. I hope this helps clarify the ‘politics’ of what is going on in the background with the Pope’s letter.
This a step back from Vatican II. Also, this declaration and stance is not a new one.
This declaration is more about the Catholic Church, rather than the rest of the Churches, whether apostolic, orthodox, or evangelical.
The pope is reasserting because of all the different issues it faces today.
Lori, I agree with you 100%. The Roman Catholic Church has over the last several years taken a steo backward into the Dark Ages. Vatican II tried to make the church what it should have been, but then politics took over and conservatives came into power. It is religious conservatives in the Roman Church who are responsible for the history of persecution and child abuse. 2000 years ago, religious conservatives were responsible for the death of Jesus. Today, religious conservatives haven't change one bit. If this current Pope were really interested in unification between the Apostolic and Othodox Churches, he would give up his throne and take the first step by joining the Orthodox. But history has shown that tyrants seldom give up their power.
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