Borat is... türk ?
Can't resist to share the information... héhé ! According to this french blog, Borat is a copy of Mahir, turkish from Izmir... lol
http://istanbul.blog.lemonde.fr/2007/01/
Here's the links of Mahir in english : www.ikissyou.org & even the british Guardian mentioned it http://www.ikissyou.org/guardian.jpg
By the way, i'm discovering the world of french blogs about Turkey and it's... interesting ! (example here) This country is real complexity in action, even for its own citizens or former citizens (see a june post about armenians of turkey).
Better understand it can help to win our "litigations". It 's like the proverb says : engerit kov@ getsir, payts tshnamiyit al aveli mod getsir (something like that).
Anyway, also checking how it speaks about armenian issue. At first sight the problem is not ignored but really not very present. Bad effect cause it's like minimizing it. Work to be done !
http://istanbul.blog.lemonde.fr/2007/01/
Here's the links of Mahir in english : www.ikissyou.org & even the british Guardian mentioned it http://www.ikissyou.org/guardian.jpg
By the way, i'm discovering the world of french blogs about Turkey and it's... interesting ! (example here) This country is real complexity in action, even for its own citizens or former citizens (see a june post about armenians of turkey).
Better understand it can help to win our "litigations". It 's like the proverb says : engerit kov@ getsir, payts tshnamiyit al aveli mod getsir (something like that).
Anyway, also checking how it speaks about armenian issue. At first sight the problem is not ignored but really not very present. Bad effect cause it's like minimizing it. Work to be done !
posted by Jilda at 5:11 PM
7 Comments:
Hello there, thanks for linking to my blog ;)(istanbuldakitom)
Indeed I don't speak a lot about the armenian issue: why? because this a topic so widely talken about in France that I don't feel the need to add my non-qualified opinion to the debate, which is rather frozen and boring with so much intolerance on both sides.
I had a few posts about it when there was this french law about "punishing negationnism" (fall 2006).
I was against, so was Hrant Dink, the murdered armenian journalist from Turkey. I covered the investigation about his murderers as much as I could, and it was an awful shock for all friends of democracy in Turkey.
But I agree, it's not one of my most treated topics. The fact that this blog deals mostly with the kurdish issue might be an explanation ;)
Anyway! It's nice to discover your blog, I'll be sure to check it! I'm going to Armenia (Yerevan + Gyumri) in October for work purposes by the way ;)
Hello Tom !
Merci de ton passage ici et de ton explication ! ;)
Ok when you're concerned you can loose objectivity, but sincerely I (and probably most of french-armenians) are far from thinking that the armenian issue was so widely treated in France, it's the exact contrary !
You hardly hear about the annual demonstrations for recognition of the genocide (24 avril), most of tv documentary about Turkey are ignoring this page of history (arte et la 5ème y compris)
, and when we have a little space dedicated to it we hear about turkish or armenian "versions" (France 3 recently)...
Talking about those "versions" to a diaspora born from genocide can't be "appropriate"
On the contrary, Turkey has always been presented on its most glorious side, until now. I don't say that there are no good in Turkey, but to present things only like that is not objective, not complete, and can't be considered as innocent, when it's so much repeated.
This is why you may think armenian reactions are extremes sometimes, but we need to be heard and it never have been easy: it's a very very long claim remaining unsatisfied, and the way Turkish authorities are treating is awful, not to talk about armenians' situation in Turkey itself.
So honestly it's strange to hear you say that France talks so widely about that... I guess you're refering to the noise made by the delicate law, which is a tough debate, and to the finishing Year of Armenia in France, which has been so rich.
Anyway, other french blogs about Turkey share very few about this topic. Only wishing you'll be more attentive and aware for it now ; could be nice to read your future observations about it ! ;o)
"Güle-güle" ! ;)
Ahah
Yes that's a point of view... As you can see from my blog, I'm neither turkish nor "turcophile" in the sense I feel free to strongly criticize turkish nationalism and sense of denial.
But the problem with some armenian associations or "porte parole" in France, is that they're mere "turkish haters". You can see turks referred to as "mongols" on some forums, and you can find some people saying "it's not only the genocide, they have to give back western armenia". I feel there is a little disconnection between the diaspora and the reality in Armenia, and I can't see any french armenian agreeing to settle back in Kars or Erzurum if Armenia effectively gets these land "back".
So to sum up, I equally despise the "Talat Pasa comitees" and Dashnak :)
What I felt from french armenians is that each time you say something about TUrkey, you should say "Turkey-which-genocided-1.5-Millions-armenians" even if it is a documentary about nightlife in Istanbul. I find it a bit tiring, even if I understand the need of recognition.
And I maintain the subject is widely treated in France: there is no other european country where we talk about it so much.
tell me what you think of this
http://istanbuldakitom.blogspot.com/2006/11/rponse-ara-toranian.html
I promise I will talk about it if there is some "actualité brûlante", but I feel this is more a french-armenian issue than a Turkish one these days... nothing much will evolve in Turkey, there are other urgent things on the agenda!
best regards, hope I was not too harsh
I'd noticed your ability to appreciate and also critize Turkey according to your own opinions, this is also why i mentioned your blog as interesting. You won't read me confirm all of your sayings though, don't worry: it's not being harsh only not to share points of view. No problem for discussion :)
I can't deny some of the armenian extremes positions you're talking about, but like everywhere else in the world, each armenian is not from one party (dashnak for example) or awfully racist as you seem to have only seen.
Finding it tiring is only your feeling, personnaly i find Turkey's official denial actions far much more unbearable. This is what i prefer to keep on repeating, the facts : Turkey presently lies, consciously, shameless and awfully about this historic subject, and it presently has tragic consequences for turkish citizens, and those minorities which are not so few.
When i mentioned documentary about Turkey i wasn't refering to something like nightlife in Istanbul. If i talked about Arte or la 5ème it's because their supposed-to-be-serious documentaries mentioned were treating Turkey's history, totally ignoring this page of history. I can't imagine a documentary about German's history ignoring the Holocaust.
So i too maintain that it's far from being widely treated in France. Probably it's more treated here than in other European countries because armenians in france are much more numerous.
I'd say that it's like the conclusion of the post : the problem is not ignored (and it hasn't been always like that), but really not enough present !
It's skiewing (biaiser) the truth to show only some sides of a story.
By the way, as to that disconnection between diaspora and Armenia, we're not only talking about old historic stories, there's still a blocus made by Turkey on today's borders of Armenia, and you may know better than me what is equality of "non-pure-turkish" persons in Turkey (armenians, but also greek, jews, alevis, not to mention kurds).
Again, for Armenians, the denying attitude is not innocent.
Consider it as you want, you're free, but after a genocide, followed by a 2nd essay armenians managed to resist (Sardarabad history), and 93 long years of very active State denial, persisting strong nationalist education, armenians are simply not confident in Turkey's motivation, and prefer to remain attentive, that's a minimum
Sure there are other urgent things in Turkey's agenda, but i won't forget this, that's all. I'd like others could keep it in mind too, and that's why i can be a little obstinate ;)
As for your post about Ara Toranian, I read it already too. You wrote some very true observations (democratisation of Turkey, efforts of some intellectuals, even if it's not normal that they have to be so courageous in Turkey for making it evolve). But I still don't agree with everything, example : your way of comparing the penalising law to Karabakh situation.
So I have some problems with this post, even if it had good views. I like the ideals and principles you defend, but it's less easy to decide here where is the right attitude. It's very sane to debate about that and other have done it better than me
http://www.collectifvan.org/article.php?r=4&id=7057
http://www.collectifvan.org/article.php?r=4&id=7524
(please don't laugh because it's BHL!)
Anyway, my opinion is that i prefer to find a way to punish negationism, which is the suite of a genocide. A genocide won't be confessed, it's its own nature, not tolerating denying is normal when you don't want it to happen again... just my point of view
Even if we don't agree, i prefer the fact that most of people keep on remaining aware about all this sh... !
I see we agree on most points anyway ;)
My feeling is that any recognition of genocide by Turkey will only take place after a serious democratization, dekemalization and demilitarization of the country. You can't wipe out decades of negationism like that ;)
I hope the border with armenia will be reopen, but I doubt it will take place before the karabak issue is solved...and this is Armenia's problem unfortunately...
Well, it's always better to have common basis for discussion :)
You neither won't wipe out decades of a denied genocide's painful consequences like that
Concerning Karabakh it's another subject...
Just in case you'd like to learn more about armenians, genocide, its suite, etc, here's some nice clearing french websites of Denis Donikian,
http://www.yevrobatsi.org/st/index.php?r=0
or his blog
http://denisdonikian.blog.lemonde.fr/
And in english, you'll find tons of informations on armeniapedia.org, made by this cilicia website owner
You should also read the others logs of Cilicia !
Bon courage pour la lecture (même si je me doutes bien que tu n'auras pas le temps pour tout voir, un peu sera déjà très bien!)
Ciao!
I have noticed that you are talking about "non -pure Turkish persons..."
There is no such thing as a pure Turk,if there is any which I very much doubt ,he or she has to be of Central Asian in origin which does not exist in Turkey anymore.
The people you call pure Turks are the grand grand children of all the Anatolian civilizations of the area who are converted to Islam.Many of them do not mind being called Turks which is used as a common identification and some of them such as the Kurds resist being assimilated and reject being called Turks .
All in all a Turk is the person who is an assimilated Byzantine/Roman/Greek/Kurd/Jew/Armenian/Hitite/Macedonian,etc..
All alevis are Turks ,it is just that they are not sunnis.
Post a Comment
<< Home