Regression, Oppression, Bigotry: Happy New Year!
After a brief break in the US, I'm back to a warm winter in Armenia. Although there is quite a bit of snow on the ground, and lots of brown slush and mud, the temperatures seem to be sticking right around 0 degrees Celsius, which for this time of the year is not too cold for Yerevan.
Returning to Armenia in the winter is always difficult. It's not the joyous act of liberation when one comes here in the summer. Last night, however, I went down to Republic Square, and the tall and grand Christmas tree was still standing, and will be standing until Armenia marks the old New Year on January 13, and it then officially closes out the holiday season.
This time, more than any other, upon returning I was struck by a strange sense of a time warp in Armenia. As I was unwinding with an Armenian TV program just after coming home from the airport, an entertainment reporter on that enlightened TV channel called Armenia TV, owned partly by the Cafesjian Foundation, was reporting on the Elton John/David Furnish same-sex civil union, made possible by recent, progressive legislation in the UK. Then at the conclusion of the report, the female reporter non-chalantly went on to say, "Unfortunately, the numbers of homosexuals in society are growing," but she concluded at least homosexuals offer good entertainment!
Here I was, having seen, just days prior, Brokeback Mountain, a film so raw and so real in its handling of social taboos including gay love among two men, and the painful and gutwrenching affects of societal bigotry on human lives, that I almost wanted to throw my remote into the TV screen, thinking that the reporter's moronic and useless commentary on the existence of gay men and women in our society, is the exact same ignorant mindset that wreaked havoc on people's lives and hearts in this film. While I understand the obvious differences in context, I can't help but continuously be awed by the level of backward prejudice that exists in Armenia, and at times, I'm even rendered helpless (not a usual state of mind for me) at dealing with this kind of attitude in Armenia.
Sure, Armenia and Armenians (including those in the Diaspora) talk of joining Europe and the rest of the world, but at the very least, even if they are not going to fundamentally change some of their most regressive attitudes, the public discourse should be aimed at creating a tolerant environment for all ideas and kinds of people to coexist. That's the least that the somewhat progressive elements of Armenian society (in Armenia and Diaspora) can push for.
Because really, modernization and progress should not only be measured with the number of western clothing stores and restaurants that become operational in a 2-mile radius of Yerevan.
And then there is the added layer of not understanding why a persecuted nation would so readily persecute any other minority, be it ethnic, racial, religious or sexual. As I've said before, it matters not that your name ended in ian in 1915, or that your name was Rosa Parks, or Matthew Shepherd, we of all people must understand that bigotry and oppression are the same wherever and whenever they take place, and we must be the first ones to put our dignity on the line to stop oppression.
May the new year bring us all courage to fight such bigotry.
Returning to Armenia in the winter is always difficult. It's not the joyous act of liberation when one comes here in the summer. Last night, however, I went down to Republic Square, and the tall and grand Christmas tree was still standing, and will be standing until Armenia marks the old New Year on January 13, and it then officially closes out the holiday season.
This time, more than any other, upon returning I was struck by a strange sense of a time warp in Armenia. As I was unwinding with an Armenian TV program just after coming home from the airport, an entertainment reporter on that enlightened TV channel called Armenia TV, owned partly by the Cafesjian Foundation, was reporting on the Elton John/David Furnish same-sex civil union, made possible by recent, progressive legislation in the UK. Then at the conclusion of the report, the female reporter non-chalantly went on to say, "Unfortunately, the numbers of homosexuals in society are growing," but she concluded at least homosexuals offer good entertainment!
Here I was, having seen, just days prior, Brokeback Mountain, a film so raw and so real in its handling of social taboos including gay love among two men, and the painful and gutwrenching affects of societal bigotry on human lives, that I almost wanted to throw my remote into the TV screen, thinking that the reporter's moronic and useless commentary on the existence of gay men and women in our society, is the exact same ignorant mindset that wreaked havoc on people's lives and hearts in this film. While I understand the obvious differences in context, I can't help but continuously be awed by the level of backward prejudice that exists in Armenia, and at times, I'm even rendered helpless (not a usual state of mind for me) at dealing with this kind of attitude in Armenia.
Sure, Armenia and Armenians (including those in the Diaspora) talk of joining Europe and the rest of the world, but at the very least, even if they are not going to fundamentally change some of their most regressive attitudes, the public discourse should be aimed at creating a tolerant environment for all ideas and kinds of people to coexist. That's the least that the somewhat progressive elements of Armenian society (in Armenia and Diaspora) can push for.
Because really, modernization and progress should not only be measured with the number of western clothing stores and restaurants that become operational in a 2-mile radius of Yerevan.
And then there is the added layer of not understanding why a persecuted nation would so readily persecute any other minority, be it ethnic, racial, religious or sexual. As I've said before, it matters not that your name ended in ian in 1915, or that your name was Rosa Parks, or Matthew Shepherd, we of all people must understand that bigotry and oppression are the same wherever and whenever they take place, and we must be the first ones to put our dignity on the line to stop oppression.
May the new year bring us all courage to fight such bigotry.
posted by Alex at 4:35 PM
52 Comments:
I would expect usually muh more harsh reaction in Armenia to the homosexual affairs. It has of course a lot of background: Being partly Asian country, Soviet legacy etc.
But most importantly I think its because Turks used the sexual assault as a punishment, particularly for men it should been very serious offense in country like Turkey or what was Ottoman Empire. You can not change such multilayer background in one day.
As for the comment on TV, whats wrong about lamenting that number of homosexuals grow? There is a statisic, scientific number of poppulation that tends to be homosexual by their nature. Everything above it is result of propaganda and social deviation. When the deviation becomes significant related to the normal the things broke. And it has nothing to do with homophobia.
Thanks for sharing this Alex.
- Katy
yeah, thanks concerned. obviously you and i have a different definition of homophobia, and although imaginative, your Ottoman experience justification for bigotry against homosexuals, and not only, is somewhat far fetched, although in some cases perhaps plausible. so i guess racism against russians would then also be justified under this logic, eh?
justifying it will not make it go away, and don't worry, it won't even in 50 years...
Not a surprise TV comment given that scandal - when was it? - about a year ago? When Parlimentarians started saying they would expose (no pun intended) homosexuals amongst themselves - and one female politician said something about gay men should be put on a donkey, sitting backward, and painted black - or some obviously cultural reference that is less powerful in translation. Or did they even accuse a particular politician of homosexuality?
Anyhow, Concerned is an idiot - seems like he just wants to start an argument - his comments don't merit a response.
I, like many Cilicia loggers and commentators, am always eager to find valid justification for Armenia’s shortcomings whether they are in the economic, political or social arenas. Quite often, the justification is readily available and almost self-explanatory. However, there is never any justification for bigotry and oppression, not even if the roots for acts stemming from those vile states of being are planted by historical events. Thank you, Alex, for enlightening me. My physical distance from the country prevents me from having real knowledge about these intangibles. And, my need to protect my homeland from any such inhumane attitudes and related laws, often urges me to be in denial about their existence. Perhaps, we can start a dialogue on another site or blog, so as not to overburden Cilicia, on how some of us concerned diasporans can help you involved repatriates do something constructive to battle at least this one form of bigotry and oppression. What do you say? Anyone interested?
I understand your dismay about homophobia among Armenians Alex, but I do have to warn you that it is a monumental task to surmount such sentiments. Armenians, in Armenia or sometimes in the Diaspora, have a tendency to be homophobic, racist, and sexist. Yet you must realize that this is how they are, this is what they know. I say this out of experience, I have come across many Armenians that have these sentiments, and an attitude of dismay won't do much when confronted by them. As an example, if an Armenian from Armenia (hayastantsee) would have read your comments, he would be extraordinarily resentful to how you pass judgement on them. Now I don't want to say all hayastantsi's act like these and those in the Diaspora don't, I am merely providing an example from my experiences. I don't intend to counter your thoughts by playing the devil's advocate here.. I want to share my struggles with you so we can both learn. I still haven't found the best way to approach homophobia, racism, and sexism in Armenians, but I do realize that to become dismayed and disappointed will make you seem overtly self righteous in the eyes of those racist/homophobic Armenians. Change is coming gradually, and sentiments like these among Armenians won't go away quickly, since they are deeply rooted into their mentality, and I hope that you'll be able to cope with those sentiments someday, as I hope that I will be able to as well.
The good news is that the west was like this 50 years ago (even today gay unions are considered a big deal by many)... and look how much things have changed there. The other good news is that things in Armenia change much much faster than they did in the west back in those days. The bad news is simply that it doesn't make things any better right now...
Same goes for smoking which is so pervasive and acceptable in Armenia - around children, in restaurants and bars... it is changing, it will one day be out of the public sphere of things... but that doesn't help now!
think we need to discuss the various angles of social bigotry in our communities much more.It’s only a matter of time. Our current status quo of Armenian sexual-prejudice will eventually evolve and dissolve in our growing nation. I sense, Armenian- homophobia is not as rampant in Southern California vs. Yerevan, but it’s still a subject of immense taboo, especially for the baby-boomers on both sides of the fence. In my opinion, the only way, we can quickly curb this often heartless reality of Armenian sexual-prejudice and other marginalizing efforts is with grass-rooted civil dialogue, such as this community blog-median. Thanks Alex for covering this often divisive topic.
concerned: yes, the number of gay men and women coming out in the open is increasing, but there is nothing unfortunate about this fact. that's what is wrong with that statement.
and yes, the fact of homophobia in the Armenian reality is indeed a reality. But, to simply dismiss it as that and say it is what it is, simply doesn't fly with me. lots more needs to be done about it.
nonchalant talk is cheap. time to act, now. (and not just on this particular issue).
Alex,
By condemning the reporter's statement you are also condemning her right to free speech and most of the population of Armenia including me agrees that the rise of the number of homosexuals is indeed unfortunate. That is my view and your "Western" mind has no right to tell me that I can't have my opinion on this.
Nobody is saying persecute them, arrest them, kill them. And if "backward prejudice" is your opinion, then my opinion would be "moral society" and homosexuality is not part of my view of a moral society as such. I simply don't consider it normal behavior. Period. Go and ask any normal Hayastantsee on the street and most will answer the same. And for that, to call them prejudiced and condemn them , is very very arrogant of you.
You have no right to impose so called modernist and "Westernized" views on others who don't think likewise.
Armen Sinanian
Armen:
a reporter, by definition, is not supposed to allow his or her opinion into the reporting, because if you were to look up the definition for the word, coming from its anglo-german, thus latin root, it means to re tell a story, not opine. Check into it.
I will defend anyone's right to free speech, but I will also point out bigotry.
No one has begged Armenia to become a player in the European community. It has chosen by first becoming a member of the COE, and hence, my westernized ideas, are really those that Armenia has chosen to go by, by looking west, beause we saw what happened when we looked east.
And, please, do enlighten me on your definition of "normal." I sense that many of us are deviants by your definition. And whose moral are we talkin' here? yours, mine, or George Bush's?
at the same time, i would never think of imposing anything on anyone, becasue that would make me just like you and your ilk, so called moralists. and i don't want to be like you.
but i will exercise my free speech and all the tools that a participatory, democratic society provides me with to be a part of a public discourse.
and i didn't realize allowing all humans to live freely is all of a sudden a westernized and modern idea. i just thought we learned that lesson from early 20th century.
Alex, forgive me for being frank, but I feel you should let the readers know if you are openly homosexual. You don't have to answer this question, I don't care if you are or not, but many gays don't answer this question and hide behind their sexual reality of loving the same gender eventually hurting everyone around them, including themselves. I think if Armenian homosexuals fail to clearly answer this fundamental question openly, than they indirectly become part or add to the problems of Armenian social bigotry and prejudice towards homosexuals. If there are no clear battle lines, your action-call against social bigotry will be much like Johnson's war on poverty.
now, to answer a question like this from a person who won't even put their last name is quite whimsical, but i'll say this...my personal life is just that, and unless i know you and/or you're sitting in my lap, i don't think it's any of your business what sex (not gender) i'm attracted to. but suffice it to say that to fight for human and social justice i don't have to be a gay, black, immigrant, disabled woman to understand the plight of the persecuted, i just need to be human and thinking (not to mention a third generation genocide survivor). so, i think in this case an analogy such as rosa parks, cindy sheehan, or caesar chavez trumps that of your posting (albeit, no where as courageous).
Alex,
Let's go back to the words you have used: fight, condemn, you and your ilk. So who is trying to impose here.
And by the way the program on Armenia TV was "Blitz" I believe, equivalent of Entertainment Tonight or other shows in the U.S. where it is allowed to report AND comment on certain issues as far away as possible from a dry reportage.
Armenia can become part of the European family without giving up the essential qualities which make it the Republic of Armenia or Armenian nation. Last time I checked Armenia has no law on criminalizing homosexuality. But mine and TV show's opinion that the increase of homosexuals is unfortunate is the opinion of the majority of the population and once again I consider homosexuality unnormal behavior.
My sincere belief is that true love is between man and a woman. Period. I don't hide behind my words and I am not shy about it.
If you consider me a homophobe then I can consider you a heterophobe, Christianophobe, ...whatever... you get the point.
I don't care if you support man loving a man or a donkey, my views are mine and the journalist's views were hers and she has EVERY right to express them without being shy about it. Just don't put labels on us as much as we are not putting labels on you.
Armen
The word homophobia is used in a wrong context in 99% of times such as the one above. homo -human Phobi or phovia -hate. It is used incorrectly in the discussed context and is an example of how the Western Anglo Saxon civilization likes to oversize things.
Anybody who lived in such a civilization can easily notice that how the State terrorizes its own citizens, injects vulgarity and hatred, divides people into groups... the list is long.
An example is homosexuality which is not a new thing; it existed in Greek and Roman civilizations and was openly accepted.
Now, at once, somehow it popped up as a new thing and people started doing statistics, writing laws, creating politically correct terms... etc.
There are better things that humans can get spend their times on and let's let the homosexuals alone. At the end it is just an example of hormonal misbalance.
homophobics are the ones who create problems out of nothing which force people to hate each other. For example this blog attempts to create a divide between RA Armenians (who in last 90 yrs lived under Soviet influence and laws) and Diaspora Armenians (who at the same period became "WesterniZed"). 90 years is a little time. Only less than 50 years ago people with African ancestry were not treated fairly in USA, even though not that much is changed till this date. It is better that the Western States start taking care of their people first before “caring” about other “3rd world” countries.
P.S. I seen many gays in Armenia who were expressing themselves more freely than many do in USA or in EU.
And Alex, If you are trying to import political correctness to Armenia packaged under such labels as "bigotry" "oppression" etc etc... who are you fooling?
Joining Europe, yes! Preserving national character, a big YES!! Modernization and progress cannot be measured by sodomy and anti-Christian morals in the first Christian country of the world.
Once again, the state is not persecuting homosexuals. But the fact that homosexuality is NOT encouraged and positively publicized should be applauded now and forever!
Armen
Exchanges like the one above are truly disheartening. Just like there is never any justification for bigotry and oppression of any form toward anybody or any group, there is no justification for mature adults engaged in a public dialogue to launch personal attacks, false accusations and inappropriate inquiries. There is a universal norm of mutual respect that is expected to be upheld in all forms of human exchange—that is if the parties involved wish to be heard or in any way valued or respected. And even though, it is probably in poor judgment to base opinions about a nation, state or society on the opinions of just a few internet-savvy bloggers, there are some basics that have become obvious in the heated and sometimes infantile exchange above: there is moderate to rampant aversion to differing human sexualities in Armenia and Armenian communities; there are some Armenian citizens and/or diasporans concerned about this aversion and deem it oppressive and bigoted in nature; there are some Armenian citizens and/or diasporans offended by the said concern expressed by others and deem that concern intrusive and arrogant. I think the main characters of this comments section have made themselves clear on where they stand on human sexuality and whether or not they believe condemning any form other than heterosexuality is acceptable or not to them personally or in their society. Being disrespectful to each other by casting unwarranted labels and ill-spirited comments does not make your argument any stronger or your voice any louder. Henceforth, I hope, for our nation’s sake, and that of our country and all of humanity, we can agree to disagree about our acceptance of a variety of human sexualities, but not disagree that discrimination; physical harm, and harm to human dignity is not acceptable under any circumstances. Before we can discuss our opinions of the figurative marriage between the East and West in Armenia, or that of Saro and Garineh, or Saro and Garabed, we should at least agree that we oppose oppression and all forms of human injustice.
Armen, you’re so self merciful, so self confident in your mindset, yet you totally discount and overlook what Alex is really communicating. Let’s avoid beating the drums of Armenian nationalism for once and have an truthful dialogue. We all now know how regressive we can be when it comes to loving each other and accepting ourselves face value. I swear, sometimes I wonder why we are so hard on each other, so unforgiving and mulish.
Show me a nation which is not nationalist.
Maybe you can show one in a history book.
Nationalism is vital for small nations to survive therfore there is nothing wrong in nationalism. You can call it patriotism if you want to be politically correct but it is the same thing.
And cut this liberal crap, it is artificial and utopian.
The theme I seem to see in the "it's not our culture" posts is this underlying implication that homosexuality happens due to societal acceptance, rather than it just being there all along (whether openly, repressed or secretly)... either they are ignorant, or just don't want to accept it.
Despite some comments indicating the contrary, I found this discussion to be EXTREMELY civil and eloquent in comparison to other discussions by Armenians of all roots, in this and other forums. I have been pleasantly surprised by the civility here - where accusations have been based on out-of-context phrases and 'tone' which is hard to share electronically. In other forums accusations are 'shouted' and put downs are colorful and thrown about indiscriminately, without examining the core issue.
In any case, I want to second or 'third' the point that one's personal sexuality is beside the point here.
Also wonder if the morality argument wanders into the seperation of church and state debate. Doesn't Armenia call itself a Christian nation? And what does that mean, exactly - because if it means that Church can control law, then certainly homosexuality would be 'forbidden', and even a 'liberal' don't ask don't tell kind of law is not helpful to the argument Alex is making.
Raffi,
It's true that homosexuality has been there all along , in every culture every nation every race. Sodomy, child abuse,lying, cheating and other social ills have been there all along too.Encouraging them outright is another issue though.
As an Armenian Christian I do not accept homosexuality as a normal lifestyle and under any circumstances it should not be encouraged or spoken about favorably in Armenia in the name of modernism or progress .
I am against persecuting anyone for any reason. But it is my right to discourage and find unfortunate, a lifestyle which is clearly described as a sin in the Bible. And especially not in the Republic of Armenia.
Armen
I just wish humans, not to mention Armenians, stopped being so uptight about homosexuality. It irritates me SO much that people can judge others so easily, especially when it comes to thier sexual orientation.
Tolerance is what we all should adopt for a change. From the sound of the offensive commentary on TV, to some of the comments here, seems like we have a loooong way to go still...but at least it is refreshing to know that there is some dialogue around this subject....
Lalai
Armen, everything you listed (child abuse, lying, cheating) other than homosexuality is a non-consensual/unequal. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Also, if you believe whatever Jesus preached to be the word of God, then I assume you know he never once said that homosexual relations are wrong. You can argue that his disciples did (though some argue they didn't - see the link), but he definitely never did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality). Also, based on the bible you should believe that polygamy, slavery and other things are perfectly fine too...
The unfortunate thing is that people who don't accept it as the nature of some people, cause a whole lot of miserable lives and broken marriages...
First, some of you guys talk in such a way about the rest of the Armenians as if you are some how special, you hold that key to ultimate knowledge. Alex you sound way too self righteous and you sound insulting. Moving on...
Let me see, majority of Armenians live in poverty or extreme poverty, our government treats its people like human waste, prostitution amongst Armenian women is on all time high, Armenian kids beg people on the streets for money, Armenian elderly have to dig through the trash to find food, Armenia has a negative birth rate, exodus of the Armenians from their own country is not stopping, and you are upset because a commentator on an entertainment channel during a entertainment program made a comment that MOST OF THE WORLD will agree with? Are you serious? Armenians all around the world have to deal with much more serious and troubling issues. Issues that will make or break our nation. Listen if you think that being gay is ok that’s fine, and most, including me, are not saying that they should be harmed in any way, but IT IS NOT NORMAL. Say whatever you want. Armen, who by the way has very good points, brought the religious and moral point of why it is not right, with which I also agree, but I want to also give you the biological or natural reason why it is not right.
It is known that human body is a perfect creation, meaning that everything in it has reason to be there (even the appendix, which for many years people thought was useless, now is said that it could be used while the baby is still in the womb). Now if nature "wanted" same sex relationships, we would have not have sexes. People would have the same sex organs (penis and a vagina on a same person). Is nature wrong some times? Are some people born with some type of a problem, or an abnormality? Yes. Are all curable? No. Being gay is one of those things that some people are born with and it is very unfortunate. But most of the so called bigoted Armenians dot want to kill them or harm them, especially when there are lots of talented people who are gay, but Armenians do not want to give gays the hype they have in the West. Also we have to remember that not all gays are born gay, a lot of them decide that they are gay, one day they are with a girl, next they decide they want to be with a guy (if they stop here they will claim that they are gay now), but if they decide to go back being with a female, they will declare that their bi and that they went through a phase of self discovery. This is called perversion. What if pedophiles, necrophiles, and/or "animal lovers" start to openly show their love? Are you going to support them too? By the way rise of homosexuality in Armenia is dangerous for the state where we have more people dying then being born, it stops the creation of life.
About the Western integration. Just because Armenia decided to join the EU, we dont have to loose our identity. Maybe you are a globalist in a senese that you would like to see one type of natioanlity, European. You sure sound like that. Let me tell you that when Armenian women got equal voting and working rights thanks to USSR (which it sounds that you dont like) women in US were marching for voting rights. When Armenian artisans and architects were creating peaces of historic art, your western nations Were conqering and raping each other.
If you wanna change a how Armenians behave, try changing not their behaviors towards gays, but their behavior towards laws. Armenian LAWAYS had problem with authority which negatively affects how our society functions (taking bribes, not doing their job, corruption, not following basick traffic laws etc.), try to change that, and help your country.
Just because west thinks an idea is progressive it does not make it righ. Holland allows use of certain drugs that are illegal in most of the world to be used in coffee shops, also prostitution is legalaised. Should we adobt those laws? No. Different nations deal with different problems, Westernised views are not for evry nation. Can we learn from the West, yes, but West has a lot to learn from the East.
sorry for the spelling, did not go over it
Alright, since I started this discussion, I will try to have my last input and then let the chips fall where they may. I agree with aks that some of the posts (including mine and aks') have had a self-righteous tone, and for that I apologize, because the first rule of debate, as I was taught years ago, is to always be confident, but not arrogant. i will also add that i thrive in an environment where different ideas are discussed, so i do believe that this is useful on some level, because it allows us to create a framework for our thoughts.
So, to all the bloggers who have posted in the comments section, thank you, because i've learned new ideas, and i've made my arguments stronger as a result. Now, whether one is a christian funadmentalist or a social liberal, the key here is to try to reason these issues without being inflammatory. I certainly tried that, but I don't think that all posts attempted to do that, especially when there are personal attacks. I also believe that all the social issues that aks has described above, are linked to one another, including to the issues raised as a result of this post. So, whether you think that gays are socially dangerous deviants or that they are humans deserving of the same respect that you are afforded, it really matters little, because unless you're willing to do something about it, nothing really will change one way or another, and that my friends (aks and Armen), are the greatest dangers--when a nation remains stagnant. So, I return to Yerado's call for action. I'm signing up. And Paul b., I think you're right that sometimes we're utterly blinded by our mindsets, and I'm with you in trying to see the other side of this argument--the judeo-christian fundamentalist side, and I say this not to be dimunitive, but simply to characterize what I perceive Armen and aks to be, since there are plenty of Christian groups, including the Armenian Church, unlike the Catholic Church, that see little use in social commentary and instruction. All in my opinion, not the word of my god!
I will leave the arguement itself alone in this comment, since I already shared my thoughts, but I have to address some of AKS's comments...
To say that Armenia has big problems, so we can't afford to address smaller ones is wrong, plain and simple. It is like the Turks who say Armenians should worry about rebuilding their country, not about the genocide. Also wrong. We CAN do more than one thing at once. It is wrong to suggest we cannot. Is smoking as big a problem as Karabakh? It probably kills more people, but either way we can work on both issues, and many others at once. Phew, ok, had to get that off my chest.
The human body is perfect? Debatable (and what are men's nipples for if I follow your reasoning?), but in any case, yes, survival of the fittest would mean that just about everything needs to have a reason for being on the body, or it is evolutionarily going to disappear.
Again, please do not compare apples to oranges - what two consenting adults do is a very different debate than pedophilia, rape, murder and any other NON-CONSENSUAL activity. Please, be careful not to lump these together.
Armenian women did not "get" the right to vote when the USSR invaded and took over Armenia since they already had it. And there were many Armenian women in the Armenian parliament before the Soviets arrived -- a higher percentage than today.
I suspect you'd admit that western nations also created some historic art, and that Armenia was did not refrain from conquering for some selfless reason - it was simply unable to.
You say that prostitution is illegal in Armenia. You are wrong, it is absolutely legal.
You ask if certain drugs should be made legal in Armenia. Nicotine and alchohol are much more harmful than that certain drug you are referring to, and quite legal.
Clearly, we have very differing ideas on a lot of things AKS, but I am happy to say we do agree on one important thing:
"Just because west thinks an idea is progressive it does not make it right."
I totally agree. I think there is a lot of bad in the west, as well as good. Armenia should try hard to hold onto those things that make it special and are better there, while adopting those things from the west which will make it a better place.
Armenia does have big problems Raffi, and we have a lot of smaller and way more important problems than gay tolerance. Smoking is not a small problem its one of the big ones, I forgot to mention, so thank you for bringing it up. I hate smoking, NEVER tried it never will, and I do my best to influence smokers to stop.
What you are saying is the same if a doctor offered a man who just had a horrible accident and seriously damaged an important body organ/part and needed an immidiate operation to save his life to do a hair removal surgery, because being hairy is not "in". What I am trying to say is the EXTREME MAJORITY OF ARMENIANS COULD NOT GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT GAY RIGHTS. Too many other problems big and small. You wanna organise and start a pro gay campaign, go ahead, approach a mother who just did her shopping in the overpriced "PROSPECTI BAZAR", or an elderly man who is a WW2 veteran , or a young man/women who can not find a job, or a Karabakh war hero who is disabled and/or cant find a job, and tell them about your cause, the most polite answer would be thank you not interested (thats if they are in good mood).
Find another cause, use your energy and knowledge for something else, this is just a friendly advice nothing more, you have the right to do whatever you want, but do something that Armenians can benefit from. Besides the new law protects gays, they freely come out and no one touches them. Do they sometimes get beat up? Yes. Does it happen in gay friendly countries too? Ofcourse. Its not widespread, in fact there is going to be an exclusive gay bar in Yerevan soon.
You said "what two consenting adults do is a very different debate than pedophilia, rape, murder and any other NON-CONSENSUAL activity".
Well how do you know if that dog or goat or the monkey does not like it (might sound funny)? Or if that 12 year old kid does not want to have sex with an adult? I am not comparing apples and oranges at all. We are talking about different sexual orientations, all of the above belong to that category. There are lots of horny dogs who dont care what they are humping, would that make it OK for you if a women and a dog had a consensual sexual relationship. Or if a 30 year old had a consensual relationship with a 12 tear old girl or boy? In both cases it is not hard to tell if it is consensual or not, should we treat them in a same way as we treat a standard relationship? Pedophilia and beastomania are more widespread than you might think, there are magazines, video materials, and websites for the "followers" of such orientations. Sooner or later, as moral values in the society become less and less important (because if you point out unmoral behavior you automticaly become a super relegious zeolot) one of these groups (if not both) will start to emerge and ask for recognition. AND I ASSURE YOU THERE ARE ARMENIANS WHO BELONG TO THE THOSE GROUPS AND THERE WILL BE ARMENIANS WHO WILL TRY TO HELP THEM WITH THEIR CAUSE.
True that Armenian women were in pre USSR Armenia in the parliament (even better for us), but women's place in society grew under Soviet rule.
Prostitution last time I checked was illegal in Armenia, am I missinformed? Any new laws on that?
When I say illegal drugs, you know what I ment, nicotine and alcohol usually are not illegal, that is another topic.
Armenians did not attack and conquer their neighbors because we usually like to have a business that makes money then an all powerfull army.
aks,
What can I say, you speak from my heart. Very very well said.
Prostitution is still officially illegal in Armenia. Homosexuality isn't.
It is very true that morality is immediately labeled as religious zealotry with all politically correct mercenaries immediately jumping ship.
They usually try to get their message across by telling heart-wrenching stories like Rosa Parks Matthew Sheppard and preach "equality" while destroying what's left of morality in today's society.
Alex tried to do the same. Didn't work.Doesn't work. I was just disturbed that he used the Armenian Genocide comparison.Shame on him.
Raffi,
The New Testament is one whole entity for me. I don't separate people, what they said and didn't say, from the Gospel.And the New Testament clearly condemns homosexuality as a sin.
Jesus didn't speak of homosexuality. True. He didn't speak of incest and bestiality either. So they are OK too?
Armen
I join to Ask to say that we have more important problems to deal with, just to name one: corraption which leads to emigration, poverty which in their part lead to other horrible things.
So if you are that concerned about the livelyhood of Armenians in RA you better urge your ambassador not to support the corrapt government with its illegal supreme law - the recently boycotted but passed Constitution.
We definitly dont want to blindly accept the Western values, where grandchildren kill their grandmother that they can take her savings in order to go and buy mobile phones or a 15 year old would kill his brother & sister and burn his house that he could get adopted by a rich family.
Those were the headlines in UK in the past 3 days.
If you dont like Armenia you are free to leave or at least don't complain. If you want to help the first thing on your list should be stopping to serve to/work for institutions that bring further misery to RA and its people.
wow, these last two posts on the comments really show how deranged some of these people are. if you can't simply draw a parallel to any kind of human on human violence, oppression, wether it is verbal or physical, then you have not reached any serious intellectual maturity. i just hope Armen, that your brand of morality is never imposed on me, because you sound like a Nazi to me, disguised in a priest's robe. And really to the last post, you don't get to decide what I say or do or when I leave my ancestral country, just because you don't like hearing what I have to say. This is called diversity, try it, it does a soul good. It was almost a waste of time to address this note to simpletons like these last loggers. But, we all wast our time sometime.
Briana or others,
have you done anything useful or beneficial to Armenia or its people? If not than dont complain. If you would like to complain than do something to change the situation. If you end up complaining but not doing anything useful than you are not living a happy life so you can change it for example by going somewhere else where you feel happier.
If you are doing harm to your country and people (e.g. servering other interests) than you rather not complain at all.
Usually people who complain dont do much other than complaining.
There is this mass attitude of "something should be done" but when it comes up to doing something those who complained disapper. Then they start complaining that it is not done the way that it should have been.
By the way Briana do you know that what Nazi stands for? It stands for Nazional Socializm.
r, appropriately with a small r, because your mind seems to be small, too, please don't assume to teach me how to live my life. believe me i didn't leave my $100K lawyering job, to come to armenia, to do nothing. obviously there is a purpose for my being here, so just stuff your high and mighty attitude. and i'm sufficiently happy, thank you very much, because i do complain and i do solve issues everyday.
oh, and thanks for teaching me what nazi stands for, even though you spelled it wrong.
you, armen and aks are annoying me now, so i'll stop writing and altogether reading your dumb posts. i'm instead going out to form a new ngo: united against stupid simpletons (U ASS), and don't worry i'll email you our first fundraising letter.
It is funny :)
You are taking this too personally - Come on admit it Briana with small b :)
Eating steak with even a drop of blood is a sin Armen, but what’s your point anyway bringing up Christian laws (or rather Old Testament laws, which technically, in the book of Leviticus, are mostly meant for the Israelites)?
We live in a country which really, honestly is universes away from practising what Christianity teaches. When so many disrespectful men are cheating on their wives (and not always with another woman), yet don’t even show one hint of shame for their behaviour.
Remember we are supposedly Christians. Jesus’ Golden Rule sums up everything which supersedes the Old Testament, right? Our Messiah preached only one thing constantly, “Do to others as you would have them do to you,” you, being a citizen of this earth, and not Jesus, your judgemental comments will only hurt yourself in the end. I can’t see how you can compare homosexual behaviour to rape or incest or bestiality. You might want to come up with a better one that that example. And constantly bringing up encouragement honestly has nothing to do with this whole issue. Keeping it behind closed doors is just going to make things worse. Nobody, except you, is talking about encouraging anyone anything. I’m not sure if what you are thinking is similar to the immature thought of, “If we accept gays the way they are, more and more people will become gay.” Simply hilarious!
A comment to r, you mention news in multi-race/multi-religious countries with populations of 10-100 times more of Armenia’s. Don’t disregard the Georgian-Armenian who got his head bashed into a toilet because he didn’t like our President; or the girl who got axed in the head in broad daylight for 5,000 drams ‘cause the guy was jobless and went for a donut afterwards; or something as simple as our jaky-juky kids (the kids who dress “American” style) and get their asses kicked every single day ‘cause the “men in black” think their attire is harmonious with our culture and denim isn’t. Our news probably covers 1% of the violence, the beatings and killings that take place in this country. Maybe not even that much.
Aks, I just can’t stop laughing at some of those immature comments. That bit about being born “gay” or choosing to be, going back and forth between sexes, being in the same category of pedophiles, and the danger of homosexuality in Armenia leading to the end of creation of life. Can you make it any more obvious that you don’t have any gay friends, or should I say, ones that are not scared of telling you that they are?
Again I will say, “Do to others as you would have them do to you.” Such a simple teaching, yet every single major religion in this world teaches this. The day will come when we will have to face our pasts, and if we’re a little more careful and non-judgmental towards one another, we will only be doing ourselves good.
Alex I agree with you that the way the statement was made on the show was not quite correct, yet I’m glad, and quite surprised, that they did show that bit of news. I suppose there was a positive side to it being aired.
Hova,
Wow, this blog took me a long time to read! As your picture portrays, you don't look like the typical "hayastanci" guy. Yes, you might have the black shirt going for you, but it's not the convential black shirt and black pants, and same hair cut that hayastanci guys wear. When I visited Armenia for the 1st time ever in my life, I was shocked! 1st of all, we have a perception of how "hayastanci" guys dress. In L.A. as we all now, "hayastanci's" think they are gangsters, dressing like blacks and mexicans. Am I wrong? So when I went to Armenia, every guy looked the same to me. Now my style is more European. And when I visited Armenia with my spiky hair, facial hair, and different clothing style, I got bad looks, and unnecessary words said to me. But I simply approached those people, Just like freedom of speech, and expression. Is there something wrong with my style no! IS there something wrong with their style? No! That's why it's called style. Everyone does what they want to do. If we all dressed alike, acted a like, then would we be individuals?
Now for the whole homosexual issue. I love it how a lot of you "try" to act open-minded. All I have to say is, that everyone has a right to what they think. If someone doesn't like gay people, that's their DAMN right! I only have one question for all of you who aren't against gays. What if you had a child, and they came to you one day and said they were gay? Would you be ok with that. I wish I had the powers to see that. Because I know for a fact that none of you would be ok with your child being gay. But i'll leave that at that. And for all of you that downgrade Armenia for its views on a lot of issues, don't forget where most of us live, the great ol U.S of A. Where gay marriage is still band, and where racism still exists, and hate crimes are reported everyday. Needless to same where all the freeway shooting, kidnapping, rape, drugs, etc. etc.... I'm pretty sure that half those stuff don't happen in Armenia. Kids can actually walk the streets in the middle of night, without fear of getting kidnapped or raped.
"Please stop being a hypocrite by bashing peoples views"
Brianna and Der Hova,
If you read my posts again I don't promote hate or persecution against gays.
Brianna you don't even come close to understanding the word Nazi, unfortunately. I am a proud Armenian Christian.And I consider homosexuality against Christian morals. I don't condemn it as much as I don't condemn blind deaf or people with psychiatric problems or other sicknesses.
I don't demonize you so stop demonizing me and imposing your views on me because that's the work of an arrogant fool.
Homosexuality should not be persecuted, condemned. It should not be glorified and represented as a normal lifestyle either.
Der Hova: As a Christian my law is the New Testament and I abide by it as much as I can.If you don't that's your problem in front of your conscience and God. I myself am not being judgemental at all I simply quote the New Testament and how the Gospel views homosexuality in the same breath as bestiality pedophile and adultery.
You have no right to judge me, just because I try to be a good Armenian Christian.
that was Armen
Brianna, it is sad that you start using insults in a conversation, where none were addressed your way. So you gonna use your abbilities to create a NGO that will fight people like myself and Armen. I know its a joke, but it really shows where your mind is at.
I know you wanna see a better Armenia, all of us here do, but the question is which type of better Armenia you want to see, the one that foreign powers or political intrests want or the one that Armenians want and need.
You also said "This is called diversity, try it, it does a soul good." commenting on Armen's post. Well no one in Armenia is forcing their views up your throat, and not every diversity is good diversity. having 100+ political parties is not a good diversity for a country of 2 million with lots of problems, having multiple relegions artificially "brought" upon people when they are most vulnurable is not a useful diversity. If you want to bring these types of diversity into Armenia then I think you should be concidered a foreigh agent that causes harm to Armenia's national security, and you should be asked to leave the country. I appreciat A LOT the work that some individuals and NGO's do for our country, the help is immense, but then the side effect sometimes is people like Briana, arrogant, aggresive, and hard headed.
Hova,
Please explain why you find my comments hilarious? Wat is funny when I aid that people are born gay or when they choose to be gay? Is there any other way that people become gay?
Why isnt consensual pedophelia same as gay relationship? There are a lot of 13-15 year old girls/boys who both physically and mentally act and look like an 18-20 year old.
You also said "Can you make it any more obvious that you don’t have any gay friends".
OH MY GOD. Whatever did I do, I do not have any gay friends how can this kind of injustice take place, what am I going to do.
SO WHAT.
i currently dont have any gay friends because people I hang around with are not gay, should I post a sign on me saying "LOOKING FOR GAY FRIENDS" to get some gay friends? Or should I ask one of my friends to turn gay?
Listen I had 2 gay friends in highschool. i told them how I feel and they told me that I am wrong, thats it. We joked around we had conversations, so whatever I know about gays is not from TV I went to school with these people. In fact I even have one bi friend.
By the way if you find my comments hilarious, maybe you should step away from the mirror, maybe its not my comments that are hilarious after all.
Arman S.
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
People, let's return to civility here... things have become directed against each other instead of the subject matter at hand. I will refrain from turning off comments on this post in case anyone else has something to add, but will delete anything more personal, and any replies which make references to them.
Ask you hit the bull's eye :)
Those NGOs (99%) and stuff are there to brainwash people, to inject western "values" and make colour revolutions, maybe scarlet as in pomegranate this time?
But wait still, the bad thing is that the educated people who are still in Armenia are employed by these same NGOs and International organizations. So whatever you want to call it but it looks like to me that Armenia is in a paralizes.
It reminded me April 24 1915 when the educated class was killed in a day. Isn't the same happening now in Armenia? Unfortunatly this time with the help of Armenians themselves.
This is something that Ottoman and Young Turks would have dreamed of.
Let's see if this is considered a personal attack and if it will be deleted:)
Adios
Dear Raffi,
After being called a Nazi ( which was not deleted) I thought my reaction was pretty mild but alas it was deleted. It is your site and I respect your decision.
I guess the main point I was trying to make was that words such as bigot, racist, prejudiced, Nazi are used cheaply,meaninglessly and out of context these days,to describe and label practically anyone who doesn't have a so-called liberal, politically correct view. Yet these so-called liberals are the ones who have the least tolerance towards anyone who doesn't think like them, who doesn't beautifully fit in in their utopic society, and towards anyone for whom Christianity as a 2000 year-old noble philosophy is much more important than some liberal pseudo-philosophy about life's supposed diversity, supposed open-mindedness with absolutely no regard to morals discipline or guidance.
Stinks a lot like 21st century neo-communism to me and the media in Armenia should fight it like the plague. And if the statement in Armenia TV's Blitz program was part of that fight , then, bravo Armenia TV and bravo Mr. Cafesjian. They are on the right track.
Forgot to sign again...
Armen Sinanian
Hi Armen - yes, I realise things slowly escalated (as soon as I went to bed of course) - and never said any particular person was innocent or guilty.
I only deleted your comment because nobody had replied to the personal reference in it yet and I just wanted to end the cycle... it was the last thing posted when I woke up. Nothing personal towards you :-)
Sorry to tell but Armenia TV and its sister TV stations (5, ArmTV,Armnews, CNN)seem more to be US publicity tools with the low class, vulgar, brainwashing programs with biased CNN . Of course there are programs that are there to create a "balance" and there are some mistakes (like the one in this discussion) derived from inexperience in brainwashing.
Look at the video clips and the values that those stations broadcast. Arent there better things that would educate our kids?
ther was a disagreement between Mr Kafesjian and teh Sargissian family. I hoped that it was due to teh quality of the programs that the managment (Sargsians) broadcasted and it would be resolved. Last time I watched those TV stations nothing was changed to better.
It is interesting to read all the comments about the blog that was posted by Alex. There are two major groups of people who have similar stand on the issue and share pretty much the same views. One group I should say is what some would call more “conservative” and with more traditional views and the other group is consisted of more liberal “open-minded” people who have their values and standpoint. I don’t want to put people into categories since I admit that the issue that all here have been talking about is really complex and it’s hard to really picture what would Armenia be like if we’d become more open as a society similar to those that some like to look at--- as an example. At the same time I can’t picture things as them being now. Like Der Hova mentioned, in present day Armenia, where some of us live or do not live, there are many issues that exist not only that related to homosexuality. And we all, as Armenians have to see and admit that, WE HAVE MANY ISSUES, big time and we have to think of all of those as our personal issues if we really love Armenia and want to see it as a civilized, developed and prosperous country and as a home for all Armenians; ----without putting difference between Spyurkahays, Gharabaghcis, Gyumrecis, Lorecis, Yerevancis…without taking into consideration one’s sex or sexual preferences and be united for one whole idea of a better Armenia for all Armenians on the planet…I am not a Dashnag, by the way, and I don’t think one has to be one (Dashnag) in order to care about the present and the future of Armenia. So, please let’s not offend one another but respect more and love more since all of us carry something Armenian in our blood and gins and then overall we are all humans anyway…and life is too short also… let’s live it with love and respect towards one another as humans and peace…I am neither a pacifist, if you think that…though it wouldn’t hurt to be one…don't argue too much...and take care...
I assume that the TV reporter spoke about Elton John's marriage because he is a celebrity and not because he is gay. Her comment about "growing number" of homosexuals is just a regular way to please the Armenian audience. We should admit the fact. Today the Armenians, no matter where they live (Armenia,Spiurk) are homophobic in their majority. To please, the majority an average reporter would always say what the majority wants to hear.
Now, the question that I ask to myself : Is this majority ready to listen to something it is not familiar or hostile ? I think, it is ready. But since we have lots of bigots (in power) who do not want to change the social and cultural "menu"; the majority will be always served its regular dose of "ideological" crap. Today the leadership is less ready for cultural changes than population. And its not only the Armenian phenomenon. It's spread worldwide. The US, the French, the Japanese, can be conservative and slow on "changes". We have no right to this luxury. Our fears can kill us!
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