On More Constructive Paths
So, the last log I posted caused a bit of an stir. Some of the comments on the post got me thinking of more positive approaches to issues of oppression and hate.
I spoke to some Armenian colleagues and friends of mine here in Yerevan, and I explained to them why I was so utterly dismayed at some of the comments on news programs about certain minorities, and in discussions, one said to me that as a 31 year old father of a son he fears for the community in which his son will be raised, because he doesn't want his son to grow up in a community/society where members do not have basic respects for one another. He told me that he wasn't surprised, but he also didn't find it justified, for anyone in this Armenian society to be bigoted, but the way he explained it to me was that given the social and economic experiment called the Soviet Union, in which citizens were essentially pegged against one another, there is no sense of social contract and the respect required in such a contractual relationship, and therefore, we see what we see in Armenia on levels whether it is corruption, poverty, bigotry etc.
And I thought, well, there is one Armenian who gets it, so my cohorts in the comments section can't be that right about the average Armenian being a bigot.
Heeding the call of other comments, I'm posting the the following list from www.tolerance.org where you can find additional information. It even has ways any church can play a role in fighting oppression. Great concepts!
1. Act
2. Unite
3. Support the Victims
4. Do Your Homework
5. Create an Alternative
6. Speak Up
7. Lobby Leaders
8. Look Long Range
9. Teach Tolerance
10. Dig Deeper
Moving forward!
I spoke to some Armenian colleagues and friends of mine here in Yerevan, and I explained to them why I was so utterly dismayed at some of the comments on news programs about certain minorities, and in discussions, one said to me that as a 31 year old father of a son he fears for the community in which his son will be raised, because he doesn't want his son to grow up in a community/society where members do not have basic respects for one another. He told me that he wasn't surprised, but he also didn't find it justified, for anyone in this Armenian society to be bigoted, but the way he explained it to me was that given the social and economic experiment called the Soviet Union, in which citizens were essentially pegged against one another, there is no sense of social contract and the respect required in such a contractual relationship, and therefore, we see what we see in Armenia on levels whether it is corruption, poverty, bigotry etc.
And I thought, well, there is one Armenian who gets it, so my cohorts in the comments section can't be that right about the average Armenian being a bigot.
Heeding the call of other comments, I'm posting the the following list from www.tolerance.org where you can find additional information. It even has ways any church can play a role in fighting oppression. Great concepts!
1. Act
2. Unite
3. Support the Victims
4. Do Your Homework
5. Create an Alternative
6. Speak Up
7. Lobby Leaders
8. Look Long Range
9. Teach Tolerance
10. Dig Deeper
Moving forward!
posted by Alex at 3:08 AM
34 Comments:
Akh give me a break Alex. no one except you said that the average Armenian is a bigot. And you post about a website which has zero significance to Armenia today or tomorrow.
Once again, your name-calling , labelling demonizing all have a smell of neo-communism on them. Do you realize that you are indirectly promoting the concept that you are trying to fight?namely, communism and ... bigotry (towards people who don't think like you?).
Armenians today don't need the ten point "rehabilitation" program you are offering . I suggest you take your rehab program to the outskirts of Texas or Harlem it would seriously be more productive there.
What Armenians need are simply two points.
1: Return to their roots and to the true ethics and morals of Christianity. I don't think it was only a coincidence that God made us the first in the world to accept it as our official religion.
2: The right to ABSOLUTE free speech without any need to hide behind our words. And not allowing right extremists, Neo-Nazis, neo-liberals, neo- communists or the www.tolerance.org site to impose upon us , supposedly what we have to do to become better human beings.
Armenia is fortunate to have a heritage. And a big part of that heritage (although it faded in the last 70 years of Communist rule) is the word of Jesus Christ brought to Armenia by St. Thaddeus and St. Bartholomew. To discard that heritage and to go and follow a mediocre site like www.tolerance.org is sheepishness at its best.
There is a good Armenian saying which can apply to this:
Esh-e inch kide noosh-e
G'erta goode poosh-e.
Armen Sinanian
Armen - let's keep things civil, please. If you don't like the term bigot, then discuss it, don't attack Alex. I don't care to discuss it, but here is the definition according to wikipedia, "A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own."
Dear Raffi,
I am not attacking. I just implied that if Alex is trying to fight what he considers bigotry by being "intolerant of any opinions from their (his) own" , then what does that make him?
I for one cannot imagine myself fighting bigotry and intolerance by being a bigot or intolerant myself. And if Alex equates my or anyone's Christian beliefs and my free opinion about morality with bigotry, then, what does that make him?
Enough of this pseudo-liberal witch hunt. :))
Armen
wow, Armen, I'm really surprised at your jagged response to the second post. I'm not sure where to take it, but what I will say is that if my words have in some provided you with an image of a bigot, then I must work on my English writing skills, or you on your reading comprehension, because...well, because I just don't where to being, so I'll let it go. My Karabakhtsi grandmother, coming from a traditional perspective, always tells me that there are people in the world with whom you invite to your house for a meal, and then there are those who you cook for, and deliver the food for, but then don't really care what they do with it. I'd rather take her wisdom and apply it here.
Out of curiosity: How long did you live in Armenia? And are you still resident in the holy land? At least that's what a google search on your name reveals.
But, I'll stop there, and I hope that you will show some of what you're preaching, basic courtesy in your follow up commentary.
Listen guys (workers in NGOs and International Orgs) please dont import your Western concepts to Armenia without even understanding the psyicology of Armenian people. It seems that Alex works in such a field but doesnt even understand the people among whome he lived and worked for years.
That's teh problem with the majority of western funded NGOs and International institutions. They view as Armenia and its people have the same problems as their own countries and start "fixing" these problems in Armenia. "Fixing" till they break it.
I done some research on this and I got the feeling that in some cases Armenia is used as a pilot for policiy and law making.
In UK holding public meetings and demos is more strickter than it is in Armenia. But the same Uk was lobbing against the current Armenian law.
There are many examples like this re Social security, freedom of speech etc.
There were even tries to create a conflict/devide between Kurds, Yezdis and Armenians.
I guess teh whole policy is implementing the old "devide and rule" concept but since in Armenia 99% are Armenians then the devide could be created by finding other means such as devide between gays and non gays,peopel who wear jeans and people who wear black, Spyurkahay and hayastantsi, Loretsi and Yerevantsi etc.
Dont divide this nation. If you really want to help then there are many issues to address.
To add to the list:
Mormons vs Jehova Witnesses vs Armenian orthodox Christians.
The import of mormonis, jehovas witness & etc causes big problems. Among other things there are cases when familes break up because of this sects.
It is another case that why the Armenian church is not able to act.
I suspect that all of the guys attacking Alex and denouncing Western liberal democracy, including Sinanian, live in the West, not in Armenia. That's very interesting...and telling.
Hayastantsi
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Oh Alex,
Now belittling my English comprehension...What else do you have in your bag of tricks. I think my language skills are good enough to understand what you mean.
Alex, the food your Karabaghtsee grandmother talked about, in your case, it was spoiled long time before you started cooking it. You will find few takers, very few who would actually try to taste it.
And about the google search or wanting to find out where do I reside today, where will I be next week, next month etc...I don't believe I was ever interested in knowing if you are homosexual, so please show the same respect of discretion.Let courtesy start from you, don't judge and attack the other person about it.
Armen
don;t worry be happy
Question: Is it possible for people to tolerate eachother without agreeing with eachother?
Is it possible to disagree with a person's opinion or lifestyle (or hairstyle?!) without oppressing or hating it?
These discussions have just brought up these questions for me... because I wonder if its all possible both in the world of ideas and in reality.
Glendale chick. What's up with your profile pic?
Glendale Chick - I just don't understand why people even CARE whether others are homosexual... haven't they got anything better to worry about? If consenting grown adults like to (now excuse me I will get a little graphic here) spank each other, piss on each other, have wild heterosexual anal sex, have orgy's, or sit in a church and sing gospel music, why should anybody else care??? Why would you say "it's too bad" if they're having fun and not hurting anybody? (And leave your God out of this if you actually answer this rhetorical questions, since we don't live in a theocracy.)
I personally respect and accept all people regardless of their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.
However, I am quite puzzled that Alex is surprised by extreme conservatism in Armenia. Look at the States. I don't think that US social policies are in any way perfect, but US society is generally more progressive than Armenian society. Despite that, a large number (maybe even the majority) of Americans are prejudiced against homosexuality, either openly in the South or secretly (because of political correctness) in the rest of the country. The Supreme Court decriminalized sodomy laws only in 2003, when there were still 10 states that had laws prohibiting sodomy.
Bigotry is a problem in Armenia, but I think there are so many other issues to be outraged about, such as hungry children, high unemployment, or extreme social inequality. In the US, (conservative) politicians like to play the "value" card to distract voter attention from really important issues. Unfortunately, Armenian politicians also learned that game last year. Instead of discussing the constitutional amendments, they were debating who's gay and who's straight in the parliament.
Vahan
Dear Raffi,
Consenting adults can do whatever they like to do. I totally agree. They are responsible for themselves , their conscience and God (if they are believers).
But what is at issue here is my and others' right and freedom to say that this or that is NOT OK or is unfortunate.And being labelled a bigot, a Nazi or regressive and suggest that we go and read www.tolerance.org as kind of a rehab. That is exactly my definition of reverse bigotry.
Free speech should not be restricted in the name of anything. Including tolerance. Labelling and demonizing should stop on all sides. And if one openly thinks that homosexuality is hormonal imbalance and a sin in front of God then so be it. No need to condemn it. That is his/her 100% just opinion. If another thinks homosexuality is the biggest gift to humanity then so be it.
Don't impose anything on anyone. Don't demonize the other side.Give them a wide range of choices to think. And as an adult let them make their decision .Only then, everyone will be happy
Best,
Armen Sinanian
I think what the Christian Armenians posting on this subject are saying, is, they they can agree to disagree and tolerate (intentional use of this word) homosexuals, as long as homosexuals stay in the closet. Well, sorry, but "don't ask, don't tell" type of reality seems v. open-minded and tolerant to those folks (Armen), as far as I understand the posts, but to others, that is not equality and it is oppression.
I'd like to pick a bone with the statement about Western creation of divisions between Kurds and Yezdis and Armenians. I don't agree. I think those divisions exist today. Yezdis, Molokans, Armenians are tolerant of each other only because, in my opinion, they are not integrated. Each group sticks with their own, and each group has stereotypes of the others.
We live in a global society, and embracing diversity is a not only a Western notion, but an idea that might be harder to integrate into a society that is, as you said, 99% ethnic Armenian, is one of the most homogenous nations on earth.
I'm glad to read that people are starting to tackle issues regarding bigotry, prejudice, arrogance, and superiority (or rather inferiority) complexes that are taboo in Armenian discussion circles. I have also touched on these issues in the comments sections of other blogs as well as on my own blog. The fact is it is difficult for Armenians to face their shortcomings and work towards overcoming them, and especially learning from them.
What my point was Ananymouse ( 2 blogs above) that the consept of highlighting the differences between different societies and groups is a well thought policy by the state. This seems to be more of a imperialist notion and highly an anglo-saxon trend. If the queen would do it in teh countries that they ruled e.g. give police jobs to minority turks in Cyprus or administrative jobs and education to minority Tamils in Sri-Lanka the Americans do the same in their own country. Of course they successfully create a One nation called Americans however the policies devide people based mainly on their skin colour and the money they make. This is the devide I am talking about, one that is done on purpose for having poor to push them into wars that Americans are so good at. Dont you think the first priority for US government should be ending the existance of Ghettos ? Ghettos that the Fascist germany built for Jews, Polish and other nations.
yes the Kurds, Yezdi, Molokans are people belonging to different groups however there is not that much divide as some interested parties would like to see. Fortunatly those groups are not interested in taking a part in the dirty game.
Do you know who fund and implement the Social Security Card System in Armenia? yes correct it is US Government. Do you know where the people's data is stored? yes, your ar right, in Database servers that are property of the US government. That country is holding data on every single citizen of Republic of Armenia who wish to have medical care, get pention or salary. Soon that database will hold personal medical records. that will definitly make it easy to devide people.
times are changing and Armenia needs to understand those changes in order to adapt but never take them for granted.
So go and serv to your western ideas and policies 9how innocent they might look like from teh first look)to weaken Republic of Armenia.
If they are so concerned about the wellbeing of Armenian society why they dont accept the fact of Armenian genocite?
Oh my God,
Armenians NEVER EVER had any problems with any other minorities that lived in Armenia. As long as the minorities abided by Armenian laws we respected them.
And some of you who call FOR INTEGRATION of nationalities, please if it bothers you that you are Armenian so much marry outside of your race/culture.
Its just sickening when people call Armenian to mix with evryone BECAUSE IT IS A NEW GLOBAL WORLD, it the "in" thing now, its cute, its politicaly correct. No one stops to think that oh wait, we are only 4-5million on this Earth. Globalisation is not for Armenia.
Also I LOVE how Europe and US likes to preach to other countries about moral values. Get your shit together first. England was the cause of so many wars and revolutions in the last century that it is not funny. Their world dominating ambitions did not die with their empire. Same with US.
It is sad that so many talanted Armenians follow their bull crap propaganda and without knowing (since they are brainwashed) slowly but surely destroy their own country.
Scre www.tolerance.org, read a history book, we tolerated evrything and evryone, and got screwed again and again. We have survived, but I think not for long, since they finally found a way as said before divide and conquer. We always had traitors in our history, but they were outright traitor. Now we have brainwashed mass that does the othersides bidding thinking that he/she is doing good.
When Turks were slaughtering ourgrandparents, they would leave their homes not with their gold or valuables, but with their books (usually Bible). But with this new "values system" I dont think people will care what and who they are, we see that happening in diaspora be it in Germany, US or Russia and soon it willcome to Armenia.
Well said, stephan. Unfortunately, people forget to be cynical about what the governments say and do. A lot of it is doublespeak.
They think of an issue and start talking about it. After some time, you really have an issue.
I would like to see statistics about hate crimes before gay rights were a priority and now. I am certain that such hate crimes have increased.
Or take the pro-lifers. they are concerned about the life of a fetus. But oce the fetus is a baby, they could care less.
Sinanian,
You are saying that we need "to go back to our roots and Christian heritage (although it faded in the last 70 years of Communist rule." Though the Soviet system had its major flaws, it is probably the best that could've happened to Armenia and many other former Soviet republics at that period of time. Whatever scientific achievement and success we have had so far are due to the Soviet system. With all due respect to your religious beliefs, please understand that Armenia is a secular country and we should not mix religion with state affairs. Look what's happening with the Central Asian states--they are also going back to their roots. Ballet, opera, the circus and the cinema are banned in Turkmenistan - condemned by Niyazov as contrary to national traditions.
We need to promote the science and progress and learn from other established democracies. We are part of this world and whether we want or not, we have a lot in common with other people living on this globe.
Nanul
Nanul,
I did not say that Armenia should not be a secular country. And your example of Turkmenistan is ridiculous (how old is that country 100-150 years old max?) Get your facts straight first.
There is a big difference between going back to your roots as an armenian Christian and as a Muslim. The first is going towards eternal light, the latter back to the dark ages.Islamic extremism today is just that.You can combine anything (science,the arts, everything) with Armenian Christianity.And with Islamic extremism? well, you get the point...
And now don't give me the crp about integration and diversity and globalization. And please don't glorify established democracies which have so many flaws. Armenia should take simply what suits ITS needs and leave the rest for the Western democracies to "enjoy".
Republic of Armenia is a secular country. Very good. But Armenia and the Armenian nation are thousands of years old and have distinctly Christian heritage. You want a small example? What are the architectural marvels in Armenia? Churches. What's the art unique to Armenia? Khatchkars... Let us please stop this nonesense about Armenia's history starting with Communist rule... Or in 1991.
Let us not forget our 4 thousand year old history.
Sinanian
Nanul,
Re:Communism You have absolutely no idea what would have become with Armenia if it had always stayed independent after 1918. So to say that Communism was the best thing that happened...is a weak argument. Communism filled our pockets, it also in a way filled our minds but Communism KILLED OUR SOULS. Communism gave Karabagh to Azerbaijian. Communism gave the terror years of Stalin. Communism made lying cheating and corruption part of our national character. I can state 100 more reasons.
i've read your other post and this one and i am surprised to see of the attacks by the proud nationalist christian armenians who are scared(afraid)of tolerating people who differ from them in whatever.
please stop conspiracy theories that west wants to do this and do that.stop using releigion as an excuse to hate another mankind.how can one by talking this way claim as a civilsed person?
armen sinanian ,if you dont and cant approve another one(which he/she doesnt need at all)you dont have to act this way.you call pedophiles,.... who's responsible for sexual harrasment of hundreds and thousand of innocent boy and men? did this holy church of urs act properly?
where is the love of your god?
i believe religion is not against anyone.you can have ur own bible,u can have ur own understanding of everything,but nothing gives u or me the right to question another's life.
yesterday when I was reaidng news I came to an article that covers my early claim that people use words without even knowing their meanings and that how pathetic it can become.
A person was accused for being a homophob and brough to court because he called a horse gay. The policment who was riding the horse in Oxford (UK) arrested the man who told him " You know your hourse is a gay". Fortunatly the judge was a sensible man dismissed the case.
However people from now on will avoid calling animals "gays" because they might be arrasted and possibly jailed.
This is an example that to what level of stupidity things can turn to if you take those things too seriously by reading NGO leaflets and websites.
Can you imagine some western funded NGO go to villages in Armenia to teach mothers how to breastfeed. To peopel who know noother way of feeding their newborn.
The most funny thing is that those teachers dont have children.
This is how the western funded NGOs spend the taxpayers money.
Pablo, the level of breastfeeding declined after the earhtquake and later, because of poverty. At the same time, mothers did not exclusively breast-feed for the first six months of their babies' life. The practice of giving teas which detracts from exlusive breastfeeding was also extensive. As a result, it was a contributory factor in the increase in infant mortality.
Get your facts straight before you comment about what is or what is not done in Armenian villages, and we haven't even gotten to the sensitive issue of swaddling which many Armenian mothers still incorrectly think leads to straight limbs.
Now now children stop bickering !
We have a free Hayastan and we should ALL strive to make it a better place to live for future generations.
That should be our aim, and WE can ALL help in our own little way.
Gibratsi Garabed
Then it's the poverty that is the cause of the breastfeeding decline not that how mothers dont know how to breast feed. I saw the printed brochures where it is tought how to breastfeed. Maybe your intentions are good but I very well know the main reason that why one of the major NGO which works in this area operates in Armenia. Eventhough they provide some assistance but they benefit more.
One of the rare norganizations that provides some real help without getting back more is UN and Red Cross.
The rest persue their own interests e.g. inteligence, brainwashing, money laundrying, tax frauds & etc.
Wait a second...
How did we get from homosexuality to breast-feeding? :))))
Armen you're the only one who's so obsessed with homosexuality, the topic has moved on to other issues.
anonymous, at least be courageous enough to utter your name and last name , instead of hiding behind your comp screen like a coward
I hve no obsessions. My faith is enough to keep me happy and defeat any obstacle which challenges me.
Let free speech prevail.
Some food for thought for the arguing sides:
There is a distinct difference between having a firm moral stand based on biblical values and hating everything that's "different", outside of one's experience and therefore threatening. The second one will included any race, religion, nationality etc. different from one's own, Which group does the "average Armenian" discussed here belong to?
Tolerance and acceptance are two vastly different things. There is a distinct difference between tolerating a view/lifestyle unlike your own and being assaulted by people of that lifestyle formed into a political force in search of acceptance.
There is a difference between someone born with a somewhat confising hormonal balance (androgyny - a treatable physical condition), someone being drawn physically to older/stronger people of the same sex because of a missing on unfulfilling relationship with a parent (a treatable psychological condition) and someone forced into a homosexual relationship by peer pressure under the banner of public acceptance and pretense of discovering one's true identity. While the first two scenarios have a predictable percentage of occurences in any given society, the third one surges uncontrollably once the tolerance turns into acceptance.
and mariam, your source for this uber-scientific analysis would be?
i mean can all of you people get off your high horses and realize that this world will have all of it, and yes even your own little precious armenia, whether you allow it or not. the only difference is that if it's not tolerated, you'll have higher rates of suicide and homicide, and watch what happens to the number of the mentally unhealthy.
so, get on with your lives, and if you're a bible thumping fundamentalist, then so be it...just leave the rest of us alone, and if you're a super liberal, the so be it, live your life without pigeonholing people.
i mean some of you talk like you were the next best thing to areni wine, and quite frankly, y'all are a bit bitter. it seems to me that most of you are just looking to pick a fight, and even when one of you, in this case alex, posts something constructive, the backlash is still as negative and quite frankly moronic as before.
whatever...
I want to start by saying that I DO have a few friends that are homosexual and for the most part it does not bother me that they are homosexual, since this is the life they are living. They think that their choice is genetic and if it is, then how can you change them from acting on their instincts?
I will say that for me, homosexuality is not natural and two men can not reproduce, as two women can’t. Something that is inside of such people are off kilter and for this reason the instincts that nature intended are not there.
Education for the population of Armenia, logically explaining to them how one becomes homosexual, if it is in fact genetic, will place many persons mind at ease.
If you ask me, society should be more tolerant toward homosexuals and let them live their lives with their same-sex partners, even legally marry them. Society should stop encouraging homosexuals to get married to persons of the opposite sex and have children, as if homosexuality is genetic, then they could pass this genetic defect to their offspring and perpetuate the problem.
If we just leave homosexuals alone and encourage them to act out on their feelings, they will in time neutralize themselves and this problem will go away.
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