Tblisi
I'm in Tblisi this weekend, and having a great time. It's cool being back a second time and already knowing my way around, talking to some people from my last trip, speaking Armenian to everyone to test their knowlege :-) Again I was amazed by the perfect Armenian of a Jew I met - it was flawless. It's much better this season - without the humidity - though it has rained a lot. An interesting thing I've learned is that the Armenian neighborhood of Havablar, one of the oldest in the city, is going to be torn down completely. Most of the buildings are crumbling, but the architecture is great and I am quite curious to know what will replace it. One massive building is already going up and I think it will be the presidential residence, or the US Embassy, that's what I've heard. Lots of security in any case and no photography allowed... lots of thoughts and little time, so hopefully more later.
posted by Raffi K. at 9:01 PM
18 Comments:
US is building it's bases in Caucasus. probably preparid for teh attack againts Iran. lets just hope that the next preseident is not a republica. Well rather it doesnt depend on the president but the guys who actually govern.
The house prices in yerevan or in Armenia will jump further because of an Persian influx.
The house prices of Yerevan will also go up if the renewed Constitution is accepted and if, eventually, dual-citizenship (or whatever kind of priviledge Diasporans will then have) goes through.
I dont think dual citizenship will do any changes. the current privilages (10 yeasr permit)are good enough to substitue a citizenship. The only differences are voting and being voted, and military service.
with the residency permit you can buy a house, work, start a business and travel as any Armenia citizen.
non-dual citizenship is just an excuse for diasporans to blame Armenia and not do anything. Actually I guess it will not be welcomed because there is a military service involved because of that the number of applications for the 10 years residency permit will be higher than applications for dual citizenship. In general only people who are above the military service age will apply for dual citizenship which is a symbolic act.
Time will show.
To the last anonymous I am aware of what the 10-year passport allows you to do in regards to buying land and so on.
From the way things look with regards to possible dual citizenship it doesn't necessarly mean diaspora Armenians who become dual citizens will have to serve in the army, but like you said time will show. The renewed constitution being accepted doesn't mean the issue of dual citizenship is over, they still have to work the details out over the weeks, or months, who knows maybe years, IF the constitution is accepted.
And personally I believe prices of house will go up if it's accepted because the average diaspora will feel more accepted by his/her 'homeland' and be more attracted into buying a flat or whatever.
Like you said time will show.
Im not sure, I don't think feeling accepted will push a diasporan to buy property or start a business here. Those who want to pretty much already have, the ones that haven't are more cautious and concerned about the sick levels of corruption involved. It is actually true I think , that you cannot do any of this without engaging in corruption.
Military service , voting etc, I dont believe diasporans should be allowed the vote, and have to serve in the Army if they are over the age, or have permanent residence elsewhere.
However, the dual citizenship then becomes just symbolic, as anonymous said - but I guess its better to have a symbolic citizenship than none at all - and if diasporans did want to move back to Armenia, all the paperwork, etc, is already done.
The applications for citizenship could also be promoted and become a good source of revenue for the government if used correctly.
What we could end up with though is a system of segregation, whereby, ordinary Armenian citizens, who have served in the army, endured hardship and lived in Armenia for their lives - may become estranged and angry , I would too, eg. why should this diasporan just pay $200 and become a citizen of Armenia after I have lived here all my life?
Im not sure if this could happen, but ,,yea, time will tell.
To answer Harmik on "Why should this diasporan just pay $200 and become a citizen of Armenia after I have lived here all my life?"... it's because it has cost me more than $200 000 (yes that's thousands) of dollars to remain Armenian in the Diaspora... So enough of finding excuses not to give dual citizenship to us Armenians living in the Diaspora... We are no less Armenians than you! And don't discriminate on us, as the Turks did!
The government have already said that dual citizenship will not mean that Armenians in the Diaspora will have an automatic and obligation free right to citizenship. In fact, they've said quite publcly that everyone will have to fulfill their obligations to the state.
However, interestingly enough, there was also one news report that said that U.S. citizens who might also hold Armenian citizenship do NOT have to serve in the Armenian military. This is apparently U.S. law. I assume this is the case for Russian citizens as well, which is why those who object to dual citizenship are concerned that over time, the Armenian army will reduce in size.
The issue over dual citizenship does not appear to be about the Diaspora becoming citizens, but rather Armenian citizens becoming citizens of other states in the future.
How many diasporan men would agree to serve in the Armenian army in return for the citizenship? You know the answer. Then what's the point of introducing dual citizenship in the first place?
If Serge did some major reforms in the military and stopped his boys from beating and killing the innocents kids who serve in the army, maybe more and more people would want to serve. How many kids are getting killed by serving? Not by the turks but by fellow Armenians? We need major MAJOR reform with how commanders serve and how everyone could respect eachother a little more. Sorry to say Hayastan does not know too much about respect in any aspect.
To our dear "Hayastantsi"... Dual citizenship does not equal distributing passes to all those who apply... Any citizenship has rules which need to be adhered to. However, in order to adhere to those rules, you at least need to have the right to apply for it. What the diaspora is asking for is the RIGHT to apply to what is rightfully his and from which it has been seperated by force and without it's will. Once I have the option to apply for citizenship, I will decide whether I am willing to adhere to any of the rules it implies, including military service. BUT AT LEAST GIVE ME THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE!
"Hayastansi"-
So, should those people who left Armenia under terrible conditions and dodged the army be allowed back? Are they still considered "citizens" or Diasporans now? The more you talk, the more it sounds like some Diasporan didn't agree to give you money when you potentially pitched a "business plan" to them. You sound bitter. I would thank your friendly neighborhood Diasporans who repaved your roads, gave money and equipment for the Karabagh war and floods Yerevan with tourist dollars and construction jobs every year before you start complaining about who fought in which war. Diasporans have fought the war of assimilation for over 90 years.
OK, assume that you are given your coveted right. Will you agree to serve in the Armenian army? Yes or no? I'm sure you won't. Nor would 99 percent of diaspora men, including diehard dashnaks. So what this fuss is all about? If you guys love Armenia so much why don't you give up your Western passports? The present constitution does give you such option.
Army army army. Who cares? Do Armenians serve in the Army in the US to keep US Citizenship? No. So what is this fixation on the army? Get over it already.
I am in the diaspora, and it hasnt cost me a penny. Its free, actually- and it comes with an IAN or YAN on the end of your name.
:)
With all due respect Harmick, being a Diasporan yourself, it doesn't sound like you have done much yourself to "help Armenia". Or, does writing about a few pop albums and bashing the Diaspora on cilicia.com count? The problem with Diasporan bashers is often times they are Diasporans themselves who have nothing to do but complain. And, often times, they tend to "report" on news by grabbing headlines from elsewhere instead of creating news or joining in any sort of social movement to help improve situations they seem to complain bitterly about.
What have you done, Harmick, to deserve your pedestal?
A few comments:
- Hayastantsi, yes some Diaspora Armenians would serve the army, as some have done already, and a few even died in Karabagh
- As for the abuses in the military. We will not see an end to that anytime soon, just like we will not see an end to any other soviet mentality that exists today, it will take at least 2 generations for the "soviet" mentality to wear off. Therefore, young men will be killed in the army, corruption will remain as it is, and people will still look for handouts, not because they need it for basic survival, rather because they "deserve" to travel at least once a year. (The mentality is the same in Russia, Albania and some other former soviet republics I have visited)
- Of course I would love to move to Armenia, and invest in the country, but I don't think I have the know how to deal with corruption
- Do I need dual-citizenship to invest in Armenia, no I need a civilized society and system (corruption-less)
- Do I have to invest in Armenia because I am an Armenian, no!
- Is it wrong to obtain fair gain from my investment in Armenia? I was shocked when someone told me "Armenians from abroad that invest in Armenia want to profit", say what? what did we do to lose our right to gain from our investments? What is wrong with me buying something at fair market price and selling a few years later for a profit? Perhaps its best if the same thing is sold to corrupt hayastansi at at 1/100th of the value, for him to turn around and sell it to the Russians
- Do I need any citizenship? no, I am an American citizen living in the EU (Western Europe), I am entitled to the citizenship of the country I live in, but I am not interested.
- Why would I be interested in Armenian citizenship? because I am a proud Armenian (I can't say it is the most useful travel document to have)
- Would I vote? not if I am not living in Armenia
- Would I serve in the army? I would have when I was 20 years younger and had no kids
So, instead of bashing Diaspora Armenians, just be appreciative of the work done in the US congress and European parliaments to secure aid for Armenia, and minimize aid to Azerbaijan . There is a new word for you, "appreciation", a thing that does not exist in the post soviet mentality.
For your information, the "little" that the Diaspora Armenians do for Armenia and Armenians, is far more than any of our grandparents got when they were forced out of their homes some 90 years ago, no handouts! No one built houses for them, or invested in businesses to employ them, but they still knew how to be appreciative.
Finally, please don't come back and tell me the aid secured from abroad ends up in the pockets of the people running the country.
What is the official language of Tblisi, and where can I find some learning material?
The official language in Tbilisi (Capital of Georgia) is Georgian. I'm Diaspora Armenian but I much prefer Tbilisi and Georgia to Erevan and Armenia (though I've got nothing against Armenia...)
Georgian is a non indo-european langage. Georgian culture is very similiar to Armenian, but more "caucasian" and (in some ways) more European.
After Armenia Georgia was the second Christian country in the world. Armenians comprise the largest minority in Georgia, with Azeris the second largest.
The Georgian Armenenians are, in my oppinion, much more multicultural, and cosmopolitan than other Armenians.
Do a google search for more info!
Gregory Levonian gregory-dot-levonian-at-mimino-dot-org
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