Turkey Sentences Hrant Dink
If the last few weeks of banning the Armenian Genocide Conference in Turkey wasn't evidence enough that Turkey has not changed it's approach to freedom of speech, perhaps this will. Hrant Dink was given a suspended sentence for "insulting the Turkish Identity."
The "insult" in question was in one of Dink's columns which included a paragraph calling on Armenians in Turkey to symbolically reject "the adulterated part of their Turkish blood." They were apparently insulted that Dink implied that Turkish blood is dirty. Well, the Turks just proved his point. These are the same people trying to prove how "Western" and "Democratic" they are to the EU for membership and they can't take a little opinion column insult. Nor can they listen to academicians talk about the possibility of a genocide in their history. Does it all add up yet for the non-believers? This is not a modern democracy.
The BBC article is a good read (and I'm slightly impressed that in mentioning the genocide issue, they didn't just say that Armenians claim it was a genocide, rather say that Armenians, supported by many other nations, claim it was a genocide. It's a step.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4319370.stm
The "insult" in question was in one of Dink's columns which included a paragraph calling on Armenians in Turkey to symbolically reject "the adulterated part of their Turkish blood." They were apparently insulted that Dink implied that Turkish blood is dirty. Well, the Turks just proved his point. These are the same people trying to prove how "Western" and "Democratic" they are to the EU for membership and they can't take a little opinion column insult. Nor can they listen to academicians talk about the possibility of a genocide in their history. Does it all add up yet for the non-believers? This is not a modern democracy.
The BBC article is a good read (and I'm slightly impressed that in mentioning the genocide issue, they didn't just say that Armenians claim it was a genocide, rather say that Armenians, supported by many other nations, claim it was a genocide. It's a step.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4319370.stm
posted by Arsineh at 10:00 PM
17 Comments:
What a brave man and what a TRUE Armenian!!!
You're not kidding. Someone once said "I have a lot of respect for human rights activists in Turkey" and that's when it hit me that these people are fighting a real civil rights battle over there. We fight for individual rights in the US, but they pale in comparison to the oppression that exists in Turkey. I recall a Republican Senator or House Rep making a statement on the floor about the oppression of the Christian Right in the United States (which made for a great joke on the Daily Show) and I laugh SO hard when I hear these things. Christians truly believe they are oppressed in the US. Oppressed. They use the word "oppressed." They should talk to Hrant Dink and the Kurds and the women and the many other minorities living in Turkey today.
Hrant Dink has balls of steel. Turkey is pathetic, as usual.
This is Lee Britt..forgot passwrd again! Yeah I actually grew up in one of those right-wing churches, and they would always talk about the "persecution" of the Church in America. The last time I checked, NOBODY is being crucified,boiled in oil, or fed to lions! Hrant Dink is a true hero or standing up to an immoral racist regime that has yet to prove that it deserves to be part of the EU! And to think that Turkey is one of our "Closest Allies" with that other "Bastion of Tolerance & Democracy", Pakistan!
you havent got a clue whats goig on allyou have to do condemn turkey you are arse holes
....And apparently, all Pampiric can do is resort to profanity. When one has to resort to profanity, one has already lost the argument. Simply prove that the Regime (NOT the people...) ISN'T immoral or racist. If you know so much, Pampiric, by all means, enlighten us....and please try to use better language. What kind of "crime" is "Insulting the Turkish Identity", anyway? Enlighen me...please!
Wow! Still no response from Pampiric....what a shock.
I cant find any word to describe how pathetic you are ,armenians who dwell everything you have on an totally fictitious so-called genocide claim.Our ancestors do not condescend to deal with inferior creatures like you.We dont kill babies in cradles like you.On the other hand Hrant Dink if he wants he can emigrate to armenia to live in misery,because he betrayed the people feeding him.
Ah, true racism exposed. I'm glad to know not all Turks are this hateful and ignorant. But I'm glad to see these Turks posting... and that Raffi is not deleting them. It shows what Turks truly believe, and it just keeps proving our point how aggressive their attitudes towards Armenians can be.
I'd now like to remind everyone what a Turkish official once said in passing as we were holding a peaceful demonstration outside of the Turkish Embassy during one of their Galas, as we were handing him a flyer... "My father killed your families."
well, this will be the first comment i am gonna make about this issue in an international level, so excuse my possible manners, if you feel i have bad manners that is..
It's quite sad that some people from Turkey have rather blunt and hostile attitude towards criticism. But it's no less saddening to see that people still have a sharp prejudice and to some extend hate towards the turks. First off, come on i'd understand certain groups of people having problems due to historical conflicts but almost anyone is in a way scared of turks, in a way hate the turks. F.Y.I: we don't burn people, we don't force people to get into shameful and degrading situations, especially forcing them having sex with god knows what, *cough cough*.. u.s.. *cough cough* iraq.. *cough cough* 'nam.. *cough cough*
that was some many coughs, don't you think so? well tell you what, more examples can be given, if necessary..
Going back to history:
well no doubt, history is broken into two and takes two parallel but not same routes in a war. I mean what i'd know and what most of you guys would know would differ, and it would be hard to appreciate what the other side says, but what i am asking from you guys to give a chance to what i say.
It was from the late 1800s to the beginning of 1900s ottomans (i didnt say turks, important) and armenians in eastern anatolia had problems. which is quite normal i mean all empires,, kingdoms that are composed of many nationalities had such issues. So what differs in this case is, the country is going through a world war, and is in very tough times, and is suddenly hit from the back by its own townfolk. So a law is made and passed, forcing these eastern armenians to move to another settlement till the war is over and struggles can be settled. (BTW this law was passed in 10th of may not in january or some other month in the middle of winter as some claim.)
So the question is, what were the government supposed to do to settle the struggle, hand in flowers to all the armenians in the region? They forced them to leave till things are settled and in my sense of understanding that's way better, way more human than total annihilation.
I'd like to finish my words with one more thing; the problems between armenians exist almost entirely with the armenians in the eastern anatolia, i am born and raised in the old city of Antioch (maybe you know), i know a decent number of armenian people, still christian still talk their language as they like, and still proud to be a part of the union in Anatolia. Afterall Mustafa Kemal's one citation is very well put, he marked the diversity of nationalities in anatolia, richness of cultures, and underlined the beauty of it.
g'day folks
thanks for reading
Namingnonames, thank you for your civil expression of your beliefs. It makes for much productive dialogue when the anger is controlled. There are a few things I will respond to, first being hatred of Turks. Speaking for myself, I don't hate Turks. I am angry towards Turks who are deniers of a genocide they know took place, yet lie. In many cases, this is the only encounter most Armenians (who's families were brutally massacred by Turks) have with Turks, so it should be understandable. All the things you say are things I have heard from many other Turks who feel compassion towards Armenians, but are misinformed of what took place. The reason you are misinformed is because you live in a country where your government is the source of denial. The rest of the world is aware of the intentional and deliberate annihilation of the Armenian people. There are things that happen in Turkey that other Turks will never see, never know about. Therefore, you are fortunate enough to think that it doesn't happen. Of course there are Armenians in Turkey living happily in some places, but little do they know that far from where they live, their ancient history of churches, monuments, gravesights and khatchkars are being demolished. Mass graves of massacred Armenians are being used for Turkish propoganda claiming that they are Turkish bones from when Armenians supposedly revolted.
I suggest you ask yourself why Hrant Dink was sentenced to jail. Ask yourself why Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk is being charged for speaking openly about the Armenian Genocide. You have a law forbidding people to even TALK about your history. So I don't hate you or the Turkish people for not knowing what happened. As for the facts of the genocide, I will not talk about that because as far as I'm concerned, it has been proven and categorized as genocide by the international community. As far as burning people and other horrible acts you accuse the US government, ask any Armenian in the world about their grandparents and they will give you a story of those horrific acts you think never took place. I don't deny that the US has a bloody history, infact I vocalize my objection to it daily. But this doesn't excuse that. It doesn't make genocide less punishable. It gives us more reason to recognize and bring justice to past genocides to put an end to the cycle of crimes against humanity.
@arsineh:
Well of course nothing excuses any deed done in past. I have no intention to deny or try to milden any facts.
First off all, what strikes me every single time, what's with the certainty people? I mean you're accusing me of being misinformed, and how come you never realise that what you (and i mean you in general, you all) know might be defect, incomplete or completely far from truth (i'd like to strees that i don't claim that, but rather to point out the fact that such a possibility exists and it's much higher than what you might think it is). Bottom line is, none of us that live today has seen what has happened, and all we know is what we're told by some "other people", the way they like the story better..
I see that most people that are pro-towards the idea of genocide are using the arguement of "international community".. Well you see, it's not that surprising if you ask me. I didn't mention the prejudice towards the turkish nation for no reason. Not many things are associated to us because of this prejudice. For example how many people would believe me if i were to say that turkic (att: spelling) tribes were the inventors of runic alphabet in eastern asia? Or that for some centuries, turkish kingdoms were the center for science.? Or coming to today, even know the language, and the culture has nothing to do with anyone of the neighbours, and is actually one of the most rich and unique languages in the earth, along with korean and japanese in the same language family?
Yes, i don't think many would even consider the truth in them, but as a matter of fact they're true. (be my guest and read through some "objective" history books, wikipedia would be the fastest source for the computer whizzies, for example)
ANother point is; i don't necessarily get the real arguement behind, "turks slaughtered millions armenians in the region" statement. First off Ottoman population records that are crypted and hidden in palaces in Istanbul state that in the years well before the armed conflicts, the population of armenians in whole anatolia was around 1,5 million. so it'd be kinda awkward to continue with that claim mentioned above. (of course one can speculate about the validity of the ottoman records, but i leave that to your inner mr. suspicious)
Besides, let's think also about why the ottomans would just decide to go on a "kill frenzy" in the hard mountain regions of eastern anatolia, in the middle of the winter (as you guys claim) for no apparent reason. Out of the blue... One should also keep in mind that the country is quite weak and is actually in a world war with a very weak military. Why would you use your military power to something so insanely pointless?
Another arguement one can give would be, that even though turks through out their history were not the best civillians, the best politicians, the best negociators, etc they were honest and honorable warriors (and no i am not writing these out of extreme nationalism, i can give referances to books written by non-turkish history professors)
So if they were to butcher millions of people, they'd definetly not deny but instead advertise it, to be able to re-achieve some charisma in their "fallen" state.
lastly, i am in no means support of the government in Turkey, never been for the last 10 years.. Too bad that our country can't come up with the needed political leaders. Though i have to say i can clearly recall the prime minister proposing the idea of historians handling the issue, and them being given the government records. The idea was refused by the armenian side, for some unknown reason. I recall similarly that the Armenian prime minister, or international affairs minister, stating that they won't accept anything till the genocide claim was accepted. Question is, if this genocide is so certain, so proven why is the armenian side not willing to let the experts do their job, and open up their government records?
Anyways,that's me again speculating about the issue..
regards,
hi stillnamingnonames...
Your post is bordering on genocide denial, which I do not allow here, for your information, so be aware of that as you post. Your post is also full of mistakes which I will address here, and I hope you can believe that what I post is true and look it up/find out for yourself.
First you say Armenians claim millions died... I think the largest number Armenians generally claim is 1.5 million, which is very different than "millions". Then you say there were "only" 1.5 million Armenians to start with - I'm glad you referred to Wikipedia because there is an excellent article on how many Armenians existed and you should read it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_population - the main thing is that the population was clearly more than 1.5 million - and possibly 2.5 million. But in the end, the numbers do not matter at all, it is the intent of the Ottoman Turkish Government that matters.
Then you claim that it would not make sense for the Orromans to go on a "kill frenzy" of Armenians in the east. Well don't tell US that!! We know it doesn't make sense in the spring or the fall or the winter! But basically Turkey wanted that land never to become independent Armenian, and so they cleared it of Armenians. The Jewish Holocaust also did not make sense, but you can't say that maybe it didn't happen just because you don't think it was smart to do. Whether Turks were good anything has nothing to do with it, just as with the Germans in the Jewish Holocaust - completely irrelevant and clouds the real issue.
Your final question about the Armenian archives being opened is another big Turkish government fallacy. They have never, EVER been closed. Never. You cannot show me evidence of a single scholar EVER being refused entry. So do not EVER repeat this bologna till you have such proof.
So why did the Armenian govt refuse the offer? I don't know, I guess it's just insulting since we all know what happened, and so does the world. Maybe they should have anyways, but I don't think the Jews would have accepted such a thing, and I don't see why Armenians should. All the evidence is so overwhelming it's really just ridiculous. Even in internal Turkish government correspondence (read up on the Heath Lowry/Turkish Ambassador scandal) you see that the Turkish government knows it was a genocide...
So please - you sound reasonable... go and continue your education on this topic. Learn what happened and why. And, in the end, I am sure you will join the countless Turks who have already liberated their minds and seen the light...
I don't engage in debates on the facts of genocide for many of the reasons Raffi just posted. You ask if we have questioned whether or not our "arguements" are defect? We don't use the word genocide lightly. We use it because we KNOW it happened, and that is exactly why Armenia should not engage in a debate. It IS insulting. As for prejudice against Turkey, as I said before, I don't hate the Turkish people. I have a Turkish friend, my mom has Turkish friends, and there are many Turks right now that I respect... not just for speaking out about the Armenian genocide, but about human rights abuses in Turkey in general. But for the rest of the world, I suggest you go and ask them. I think you know the source of our anger at this point.
I do understand why you see things the way you do. I imagine it is hard in Turkey to see things differently when that is the only information available to you, just as in America right now, information that gets to the public about the war and everything else going on the world is VERY different from what the rest of the world sees. But trust that we have heard your arguments before and they are generated through propoganda machines. Again, ask yourself why Dink and Pamuk are facing these charges. What was so insulting about what they said. If the Turkish government has nothing to hide, why are they trying to shut them up? The facade of trying to have open debate is false and a pretty show for the EU, but it's just a facade.
@raffi: well i can't say i accept the genocide, neither can i say i deny it.. I am rather skeptical and doubtful about as with many other things regarding to history. As i mentioned in one of my posts above, NONE of us can know what happened to the precise detail, since our knowledge is accumulated from those things we heard and they're all subjective to a certain degree. That is the source of my general avoidance to talk of certainty. If that's forbidden here, then i guess you should take charges accordingly, i'd respect that since i have respect for rules. But allow me to say that i beleive that would be a bit of close-mindedness and cencorship. But let's leave the unpleasant talks aside, just to make sure if you at any point believe that my comments pass that line of yours, i know that you'd be taking the precausions and that's ok by me.
@arsineh: well you have raised this question once more so i guess i shouldn't forget to reply to it this time. First off i see these two issues regarding to two people differently. As with Hrant Dink, i am not quite sure of the situation as i dont live in Turkey right now, but from what i read it seems like a dumb judgement, and trust me i KNOW this is not the first one. Again, I KNOW that Turkey's not the most transparent country, it's not the cradle of what we call today "modern society", but my arguement is that it's not as bad as it's advertised all around the globe.
Besides this is the second time you're implying that i am more or less brain-washed, and fed with propaganda and with your current knowledge of me, i find it prejudical and not to mention somewhat offensive. I previously did mention that we might differ in things we say due to different sources we have. I did also mention that none of us could be really objective to the issue. I guess that more or less is the proof of me being aware of the level of spoof that might be in what i know. Let's keep it at this level, to avoid further argues about this matter..
As with Orhan Pamuk, i believe the situation is rather tricky with him. He became more and more famous via disaggreeing with the government and some bits of the culture. I am starting to believe that he's using this to his advantage. He was named a few times for the nobel prize, and as seen this year the reward is usually given to authors who go through hard times due to their political standings (swedes are rather sensitive about this aspect).
@all: i apologize for not making one thing clear from the beginning. I have by no means tried or wanted to deny the loss of armenians in the region (eastern anatolia). I am quite sad about such a thing happening, for both sides. war is never sweet. Successes are achieved via big losses and no side wins in the end. It might sound cliché but i am rather serious about it.
People did no doubt die in eastern anatolia, and many people did die. What i am hesitant about it is that it's claimed that it was just armenians butchered in the region. If i remember the numbers i know, it's about 500,000 people died over the course of a few years, and it's almost half half. There are letters from the russian embassy in the region, provoking the armenians to revolt against the ottoman rule of the time. Providing arms, as well. What i want is NOT that armenians should be forgotten and thrown to side but rather both nations to feel sorry about what has happened and hopefully realise that mistakes were made from both sides. HUGE MISTAKES against humanity.
Why i mentioned that it doesnt make sese ottomans to do something like that, is actually to point out that no one would commit something like that without a clear threat or provocation. Which comes back to the point of two sided armed conflicts.
One thing that people don't realise about the structure of Turkey is that, it's a HUGE mixture of cultures and it's built on that. Anywhere you go inside Turkey you face differnet people all with different stories. It's this that made the country so vastly rich in terms of variety. And it's again this that made the country so unstable.
The current problem in Turkey is not racism, is not hatred towards people from different origins, but rather people that poses threat to this unity that i mentioned. Kurds are definetly not oppressed and tortured in daily routine. The city that i lived in for about 20 years, almost all the businnesses are run by people of kurdish origin. and this includes government jobs. like transportation. if you look at the top 100 richest men in the country i bet everything i own that at least half of them would be of non-turkish origin with at least 20% of kurdish origin.
What people are scared of and angry towards are those people who claim land and money from us, and thus proposing a break up. One thing else is that none of this land is "theirs" as they claim. There has never been a "Kurdistan" in the past, they have been either in the Arab, Persian, or Turkish rule. Same applies to a few other places, like cyprus for example.. Cyprus was turkish since late 1500s. and now we look like invaders there.
An example i can give about this is, i guess there are some of you here who are american by nationality, imagine the irish go on a revolt for years about the establishment of an irish independant state called New Ireland, and along with it the Italians aiming a Neo Italia, and who knows maybe even the Chinese or the african americans go against the government. so now tell me what would the rest of the public react to that? It's a direct threat to the unity of the nation, isn't it?
Regards,
Well namesnames - you seem openminded on some things, but you seem to have many misconceptions about what happened. 500,000 dead on both sides is waaay off the mark. It was over a million Armenians murdered by their own Ottoman leaders, innocent Armenians who simply obeyed all orders ever given to them by their government. There are NO Armenians left in Anatolia, but tens of millions of Turks and Kurds. So you really should consider what could possibly have taken place, and read "Survivors" by Dr. Miller. There is no mistaking what happened, who organized it, and what the intention was.
Now as for land and independence - if you agree that land was stolen, why would you be so worried about giving it back? And why shouldn't there be a Kurdistan just because there never was one before? And if the Turks in Abkhazia, the Yezidi in Armenia, the Armenians in Southern Armenia, the Swedes of Minnesota, the Native Americans in Arizona want to rule themselves, what do I or anyone else care? What right have we to tell them no? "The unity of the nation" is a relatively new concept and too much blood has been spilled over this worthless concept.
i will try to get the book you recommended, although one should keep in mind not every book is an objective source (not saying anything about this one, since i havent read it)
two things, one there ARE armenians living in Turkey. Wheater you consider them armenians or not, that's beyond my scope. Two, which land stolen from who? Are you refering to eastern anatolia? Well that land was conquered by Turks at the year 1071, you that's a pretty long time, if anybody "owns" that land, i think that'd be us. But again i am not really into "owning land" concept cus everybody has some other borders in mind..
Sorry but I can't really disagree more about the unity subject. I think it's quite important otherwise it leads to anarchy. What happens if two different group of people want to be independant on the same piece of land?
My vision of politics is rather unitarian. If you ask me for example what utopia is, i'd say one government, one country, one planet overall the whole world. That'd save us all the border problems, not to mention the wars over resources and such.
I mean how independant are the countries now? i'd say almost all the countries are more than 75% dependant on the big forces of today. States, China, and especially England (i hate them for their cold politics, they have been in all the important wars of the near past).. how many totally independant countries can we count anyways..
whatever, i am getting quite off-topic here. Sory about that. It was quite interesting to read opinions of people from the other side of the story. Thanks for the referances, i'll check them out gradually.
Best regards,
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